December 04, 2007
Dinesh D'Souza Debates Daniel Dennett on Religion
Also Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14 and Part 15 as well.
Posted by Robin Varghese at 04:47 PM | Permalink
Comments
Am I the only one who finds D'Souza unbearable to listen to? Most of the time he talks about irrelevant subjects, and when he does come to matter at hand there are so many fallacies crammed into each sentence it give me a headache.
Posted by: Nikolai Nikola | Dec 4, 2007 5:11:28 PM
Is it any better to read him?
Posted by: fred lapides | Dec 4, 2007 5:28:41 PM
I watched the video last night, and blogged about it here: http://geoffarnold.com/?p=1820
I stuck it out to the bitter end, admiring Dan Dennett's self-restraint. I wouldn't have been so polite in the face of D'Souza's repeated insults to all and sundry.
Posted by: Geoff Arnold | Dec 4, 2007 7:02:03 PM
I normally don't expect to learn anything from debates, but this was a pleasant surprise. Who would have guessed that D'Souza was "the greatest political mind of our time"? Now if I could just get this damn coffee out of my keyboard...
Posted by: senderista | Dec 4, 2007 7:30:01 PM
No one will come out of this debate thinking any differently than they do going in—but they will be more frustrated with those that argue against them.
D'Souza is far too loud and excited; Dennett looks like Santa.
Posted by: Lucas | Dec 4, 2007 7:36:04 PM
Isnt Dinesh's "spiritual" mentor PT Barnum who clearly understood that there are hundreds of suckers born every minute.
He would almost be funny except, as Senderista pointed out, that he is touted by those on the "right" as being a "great mind". To me he clearly represents how totally bankrupt the "right" really is.
Spiritually, culturally and intellectually.
In the case of Dinesh, full of sound and fury and signifying absolutely nothing but a vast pretentious emptiness.
Posted by: Sue | Dec 4, 2007 9:12:39 PM
Meanwhile, Religion marches on:
OVERWORKED nurses have been ordered to stop all medical work five times every day to move Muslim patients' beds so they face towards Mecca.
The lengthy procedure, which also includes providing fresh bathing water, is creating turmoil among overstretched staff on bustling NHS wards.
But despite the havoc, Mid- Yorkshire NHS Trust says the rule must be instigated whenever possible to ensure Muslim patients have "a more comfortable stay in hospital".
And a taxpayer-funded training programme for several hundred hospital staff has begun to ensure that all are familiar with the workings of the Muslim faith.
The scheme is initially being run at Dewsbury and District Hospital, West Yorkshire, but is set to be introduced at other hospitals in the new year.
It comes on the back of the introduction in some NHS hospitals last year of Burka-style gowns for Muslim patients who did not wish medical staff to see their face while operating or caring for them.
Last night critics slammed the procedure and claimed the NHS would be better off investing its resources in tackling killer superbugs such as C.diff and MRSA.
One experienced nurse working at Dewsbury said: "It would be easier to create Muslim-only wards with every bed facing Mecca than have to deal with this.
"Some people might think it is not that big a deal, but we have a huge Muslim population in Dewsbury and if we are having to turn dozens of beds to face Mecca five times a day, plus provide running water for them to wash before and after prayers, it is bound to impact on the essential medical service we are supposed to be providing.
"Although the beds are designed to be moved, the bays are not really suitable for having loads of beds moved around to face a different direction, and despite our best efforts it does cause disruption for non-Muslim patients."
The changes have been instigated by Dewsbury and District Hospital's chief matron, Catherine Briggs, after she held a series of consultation meetings with local Asian GPs, ethnic minority patients groups and Muslim chaplain Ilyas Dalal to find out what staff could do to further improve Muslim patients' experience of the NHS.
In accordance with the rules of Islam, Muslims are required to pray five times a day. The religion dictates they must wash themselves in running water prior to prayer and must be facing in the direction of Mecca while praying. Mecca, in Saudi Arabia, is revered as the birthplace of the prophet Mohammed, who was born around 570AD.
Turning beds so they face towards Mecca was a key proposal put forward during the hospital meetings, along with suggestions that Muslim women should only be seen by female doctors.
Although the Trust, which also oversees hospitals in Wakefield and Pontefract, could not guarantee women-only doctors, they agreed that "wherever possible" specific patient requests would be carried out.
Mrs Briggs said: "Some of our former Muslim patients suggested that a more informed understanding of the Islamic cultures would help staff to further improve their service."
Last night Conservative MP David Davies said: "Hospitals should be concentrating on stopping the spread of infections than kow-towing to the politically correct brigade.
"If the need for fresh running water is so great then perhaps family members could be on hand to assist the already overworked medical staff."
Maybe they all need teddy bears named Mohammed?
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 4, 2007 9:45:41 PM
Well I think they both did very well, although Dan's slide-show is getting very familiar. I have to hand it to D'Souza, for sheer endurance. Is there any "New Man" he has not yet debated? But his best point was the one he made in the first two minutes. Sure thech the kids about all the silly religions of the world. But teach them too about the mountains of bodies and the rivers of blood by the hands of the New Men striving to rid the world of God, or, better, best Him.
Dan's rebuttal, that D'Sousa was having fun with cartoon versions of the Atheist positions, fell a little flat. One wonders if he even owns a mirror.
Ultimately, each has to cede the point that the pre-darwinian hunch and the post-darwinian hunch regarding the P.E.T. both fail any test of materialistic logic, but only one depends on it.
Dan Asserts Stalin thought of himself as a god. Proof?
10 points for D'Sousa for bringing in OJ (corollary or the Hitler principle). I'd really like to hear a sensible rebuttal for the fine-tuning argument.
10 points from Dennett for neener neener accusations that D'Sousa doesn't understand "Laws" and "oh, yeah, well what created God?" Further, his rebuttal of philistine Atheisism's tenet that "If God is dead, all is permitted" fails in an Atheist driven society that encourages women to kill their own unborn children (at least those of the wrong hue).
questions...PET follies...Pascal's wagerette...snide bitchy hohum, but D'Sousa leaves himself open to a wicked crosscourt backhand: wait for it...nothing:back of the book-which God in Pascal's wager?...into the net...hopefully, Dennett's students were not among the questioners...but wait...this one's opened a door for Dan. Finally, but why can't his students work the mike like Dan...but then he sells Dawkins' and Harris' position right out by giving credit to Christianity for the foundations and values that drives our society. Hero no more...D'Sousa "we'll cut off the roots, but keep the branches," great point.
OK. Dan took the high road (or the top bunk) and faded fast.
Forgive me for giving this round to the Indian guy. Is Pinker next Dinesh?
Posted by: Carlos | Dec 4, 2007 11:35:57 PM
typos
10 points FROM D'Sousa for bringing in OJ (corollary to the Hitler principle).
Posted by: Carlos | Dec 4, 2007 11:38:30 PM
I think I'll ask the Talking Snake if this is really true.
He is in compitition with the Hindu god Ran, who has a army of monkeys that built a bridge to Siri Lanka.
Of course, I'll need Mohammed's Flying Horse to get over to the Talking Snake.
Americans believe in God -- and hell, UFOs, witches, astrology: poll
AFP
An overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God and signicant numbers also think that UFOs, the devil and ghosts exist, a poll showed Tuesday.
The survey by Harris Online showed that 82 percent of adult Americans believe in God and a slightly smaller percentage -- 79 percent -- believe in miracles.
More than 70 percent of the 2,455 adults surveyed between November 7 and 13 said they believe in heaven and angels, while more than six in 10 said they believed in hell and the devil.
Almost equal numbers said they believe in Darwin's theory of evolution (42 percent) -- the belief that populations evolve over time through natural selection -- and creationism (39 percent) -- the theory that God created mankind.
Seventy percent of Americans said they were very (21 percent) or somewhat (49 percent) religious, while around one-third of those polled also said they believe in UFOs, witches and astrology.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 4, 2007 11:59:39 PM
Victor Stenger, the physicist, is good on the (pretty silly, IMHO) "fine-tuning" business. For example:
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/anthro_skintel.html
And see the wikipedia article on the fine-tuned universe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe.
Posted by: JonJ | Dec 5, 2007 8:11:12 PM
For anyone who wants to see D'Souza taken on by someone with some real rhetorical muscle, go here: http://216.75.61.152/xstream/neproductions/tkc/debate.wmv
Posted by: Bryon | Dec 6, 2007 12:49:00 AM
Ram gets more press: The Talking Snakes sinks---
Hindu gods get summons from court
By Amarnath Tewary
Patna
The gods have many temples in their name Pic: Vivek Raj
A judge in India has summoned two Hindu gods, Ram and Hanuman, to help resolve a property dispute.
Judge Sunil Kumar Singh in the eastern state of Jharkhand has issued adverts in newspapers asking the gods to "appear before the court personally".
The gods have been asked to appear before the court on Tuesday, after the judge said that letters addressed to them had gone unanswered.
Ram and Hanuman are among the most popular Indian Hindu gods.
Judge Singh presides in a "fast track" court - designed to resolve disputes quickly - in the city of Dhanbad.
The dispute is now 20 years old and revolves around the ownership of a 1.4 acre plot of land housing two temples.
You failed to appear in the court despite notices sent by a peon and post
Judge Sunil Kumar Singh in letter to Lord Ram and Hanuman
The deities of Ram and Hanuman, the monkey god, are worshipped at the two temples on the land.
Temple priest Manmohan Pathak claims the land belongs to him. Locals say it belongs to the two deities.
The two sides first went to court in 1987.
A few years ago, the dispute was settled in favour of the locals. Then Mr Pathak challenged the verdict in a fast track court.
Gift
Judge Singh sent out two notices to the deities, but they were returned as the addresses were found to be "incomplete".
Local say the temple belongs to the gods Pic: Mahadeo Sen
This prompted him to put out adverts in local newspapers summoning the gods.
"You failed to appear in court despite notices sent by a peon and later through registered post. You are herby directed to appear before the court personally", Judge Singh's notice said.
The two Hindu gods have been summoned as the defence claimed that they were owners of the disputed land.
"Since the land has been donated to the gods, it is necessary to make them a party to the case," local lawyer Bijan Rawani said.
Mr Pathak said the land was given to his grandfather by a former local king.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 8, 2007 1:54:24 AM
Ram pulls ahead of the Talking Snake:
Report on Hindu god Ram withdrawn
Hindu activists say the canal project will damage Lord Ram's bridge
The Indian government has withdrawn a controversial report submitted in court earlier this week which questioned the existence of the Hindu god Ram.
The report was withdrawn after huge protests by opposition parties.
The report was presented to the Supreme Court on Wednesday in connection with a case against a proposed shipping canal project between India and Sri Lanka.
Hindu hardliners say the project will destroy what they say is a bridge built by Ram and his army of monkeys.
Scientists and archaeologists say the Ram Setu (Lord Ram's bridge) - or Adam's Bridge as it is sometimes called - is a natural formation of sand and stones.
No evidence
In their report submitted to the court, the government and the Archaeological Survey of India questioned the belief, saying it was solely based on the Hindu mythological epic Ramayana.
They said there was no scientific evidence to prove that the events described in Ramayana ever took place or that the characters depicted in the epic were real.
Hindu activists say the bridge was built by Lord Ram's monkey army to travel to Sri Lanka and has religious significance.
In the last two days, the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has launched a scathing attack on the government for questioning the "faith of the million".
Worried about the adverse reaction from the majority Hindu population of the country, the Congress Party-led government has now done a U-turn and withdrawn the statement submitted in court.
The government asked the court for three months to try and sort out the issue.
Additional Solicitor General Gopal Subramaniam, appearing on behalf of the government, said they would set up a mechanism to hear concerns expressed by those opposed to the canal project.
The court adjourned the matter for three months saying they would take up the case again in January.
In the meantime, the court has said that dredging work for the canal could continue, but Ram's Bridge should not be touched
Road blocks
On Wednesday, Hindu hard-line organisations blocked roads across India to protest against the Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project.
Commuters in the capital, Delhi, were stuck in traffic jams for hours as Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council) and Bajrang Dal blocked roads at various places.
Road blocks were also held in Bhopal, the capital of the central state of Madhya Pradesh, on the Delhi-Agra highway and on the Jaipur-Agra highway.
Train services were disrupted in many places across northern India.
The canal project proposes to link the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by dredging a canal through the shallow sea.
This is expected to provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian peninsula.
Once complete, the canal will reduce the travel time for ships by hundreds of miles and is expected to boost the economic and industrial development of the region.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 8, 2007 2:00:06 AM
I just saw this and was very disappointed by Dennett's inarticulate and ill-prepared performance. He could (and should) have anticipated each of D'Souza's points easily and prepared responses, but he seemed to be reacting on the fly, misusing his time (doing silly things like fiddling with the mic or making useless statements like, "there are so many holes in D'Souza's argument, where shall I begin?") and being rhetorically completely ineffective. I am a huge Dennett fan, but he should stick to writing and leave debate to those who know how to do it. IMHO, D'Souza crushed him! (And I don't believe a word D'Souza says!) Dennett never brought D'Souza onto his own territory and let D'Souza define the terms of the debate thoughout. Terrible. Dawkins would have eaten D'Souza for breakfast.
Posted by: Abbas Raza | Dec 10, 2007 6:44:59 AM
Dave,
While religious fantasy as truth claims in politics should be resisted, it should be noted that the canal may have considerable enviromental costs and disrupt the lives of fishing communities.
Posted by: Robin | Dec 10, 2007 5:26:14 PM
Well, a common theme i notice with D'souza's debates are that he tends to do poorly in the beginning, alright in the end and then he husaully destroys the other guy's opinions at the end of the debate. While, i believe that Dinesh did much better against Christopher Hitchens, i still think he won this debate despite having nearly the entire audience jump down his throat. Oh the only reason why dawkins would ever win a debate against any theist is that moral arguments mean nothing to him, which is likes saying MJ's dunks dont count because they arent freethrows. Moral arguments are just as valid as "scientific" arguments. Also dawkins refuses to debate anyone( from what ive heard ) i wonder why....
Posted by: John | Dec 19, 2007 4:09:27 AM
Robin--
Point well taken.
Capitalism is also a superstition based system that ignores Thermodynamics and Physics.
Posted by: Dave Ranning | Dec 19, 2007 12:45:46 PM
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