April 09, 2007
Monday Musing: Taking Sides in the Recent Religion Debates
Look, no matter whether you are religious or an atheist or some other thing, no matter what you believe, I expect you'll agree with me about the importance of this question: why do so many people believe the wrong thing? The reason I can be fairly sure that this is a question which has deep meaning for you, as well as for me, is that none of even the religions with the greatest number of adherents (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) comprises anything even close to a majority of the world's human beings (and atheists, of course, are no more than a drop in the bucket of humanity). So, as long as you have some sense of curiosity about other humans, you probably wonder why most people don't share your correct beliefs. (And this is not even to take into account the many rifts within each religion: Catholic v. Protestant, Shia v. Sunni, etc.) Atheists and the faithful are alike in this: they all hope, sometimes rather desperately, that one day everyone will share their own salutary views. But we'll come back to this question a little later.


Today, I would just like to set down a few loosely related observations about the debates that have recently raged around the publication of several very high-profile books attacking religion. The most prominent of these have been Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell, Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion, and Sam Harris's The End of Faith, as well as his Letter to a Christian Nation. (Yes, I've read all of them.) What has been remarkable to me is the degree of harshness of the polemic that has been directed at these books by eminent intellectuals as well as journalists and laypeople. Many of these criticisms seem to me to fall roughly into three broad categories, each of which I'd like to examine a little more below:
- These views of religion themselves exhibit a sort of fervid faith (in rationality, in science, etc.).
- These are theologically naive views of religion from individuals unqualified to examine it.
- These views of religion miss the important political underpinnings of recent religious resurgence.
-----***-----
Rationality as a Sort of Religion
This is perhaps the least damaging of the objections but, not only is it very common, it betrays a very basic philosophical confusion endemic to our postmodern era which I want to try and dispel here. But, first, a quick example of what I am talking about taken from the comments section of a post right here on 3QD about the Harris/Sullivan debate on religion:
...there are several unexamined "faiths" at the bottom of Harris's rationalism. That the world is rational, for one thing. That ontology and epistemology overlap. That all that is "real" is material, and vice versa. That a thing can be known from the sum of its parts. And many more.
Reason works very well once it has been lifted up to a functional level by foundational assumptions. To attribute the "rationalist" perspective to someone like Harris, allows us to make these assumptions transparent, which goes a long way toward making someone like Andrew Sullivan look awfully silly. It's a charlatan's game, and we shouldn't fall for it.
--Deets, April 5, 2007
Here's the foundational problem that Deets brings up, stated simply: there is no neutral perspective from which science or even rationality itself can be defended or deemed superior to anything else. This is uninterestingly and tautologically true (but leads to much mischief!), as one must be scientific, or at least rational, to show anything at all. In other words, it is not possible to convince anyone of the truth of anything, unless they share certain background beliefs. This means that if someone tells you that AIDS is caused, not by the HIV virus, but by evil spirits whom we must appease by ritually sacrificing cats, for example, there is no way to convince them otherwise without using science, and presumably, a belief in the overall correctness of the scientific method is not something that one shares with one's interlocutor in this case. So Deets is technically correct in pointing out the "foundational assumptions" here, but there is no need for the sophomoric conclusion that this makes Harris's arguments a "charlatan's game." Indeed, Deets's line of reasoning could be used to make any- and everything a charlatan's game. The Earth is not flat, but round, I say. Nope, says Deets, this requires an unwarranted assumption of scientific method. Potassium cyanide is a poison, I say. Maybe, maybe not, says Deets. Sodium metal and chlorine gas can combine to form table salt, say I. I don't think so, says Deets. I nervously ask, does the sun rise in the east? Says Deets (and I ain't makin' this up!):
As you well know, the sun only "rises" in the "East" ... from a particular perspective, which our culture long ago rejected as illusory. There is no East, and there is no rising.
--Deets, April 6, 2007
What can one say to Deets? Nothing. One can't say anything because if Deets is responding in this way, then one does not share enough beliefs with Deets to make communication with him (or her) possible. After all, even just using language to communicate requires that the other agree on what "sodium" is, what "chlorine" is, and even what "is" is. Presuming that we agree on what all these things are, I could try to show Deets that I can repeatedly bring sodium and chlorine together and reliably end up with salt, but that would assume that Deets is impressed with the scientific method, an assumption which I am not allowed to make. (Of course, context is always important to meaning, and therefore to truth, so of course there are contexts in which "The Earth is flat" will be true and others where "The Earth is round" will seem a gross over-simplification or false, which is why there is always an element of good faith in communication.) There is really no point in having such a conversation. There is, literally, nothing one could say. (Okay, I apologize to the real-life Deets for turning him/her into a bit of a caricature for the purposes of my argument, but this really is the outcome of his/her line of thinking.)
The good news is that as human beings we share a huge set of background experiences and beliefs that do make communication possible, and we do agree on many things, and most of us can talk to each other. Even Deets actually has rationality in plentiful supply in his (or her) comments, and carefully follows accepted lines of reasoning in constructing clever arguments. Technical and foundational issues in epistemology or even ontology needn't keep us from making everyday judgments of truth about all sorts of matters, including whether, say, smoking is bad for one's health, or whether HIV causes AIDS or evil cat-loving (or hating?) spirits do. (One of the things that human beings all over the planet agree on to a remarkable degree, is science itself. It is a truly shocking--and pleasing--thing to me, that for the most part, scientists in Japan, Malawi, Pakistan, Sweden and Indonesia essentially agree on a huge volume of knowledge and even the methods by which it is produced.) So what is the point of debate about anything, you might ask. It is this: what our project becomes, at least with those people with whom we share a basic understanding of logic and enough background beliefs about the world to be able to assert things like "sodium metal and chlorine gas can combine to form table salt" and have them assent, is an attempt to convince them of something by getting them to be coherent about their beliefs. So if someone says "I agree that sodium and chlorine combine to form salt, but I don't believe that hydrogen and oxygen gases can be combined to produce water," I can perhaps try to show that the same beliefs this person shares with me which lead her to believe that sodium and chlorine combine to produce salt, also entail that hydrogen and oxygen can combine to produce water. In other words, all of us share so large a number of beliefs, that it is not possible to be aware of all the logically possible statements that they entail, so the purpose of argument and debate is (often) to show someone that they are holding contradictory beliefs, one of which should be given up; this is how, despite Deets's reservations, it is possible to have useful discussion.
You might by now have lost track of what this has to do with the "rationality as a sort of religion" objection. What I've tried to explain is that while it is logically true that certain assumptions of rationality or even agreement with the methods of science, etc., need to be made, these are not unreasonable assumptions. It is perfectly legitimate of Harris or Dawkins or Dennett to make an argument of the following sort to a religious person, "Since you agree that sodium and chlorine combine to produce salt, and you agree that X, and you agree that Y, and you agree that Z, ... and you agree that such and such is a good method of deciding these things, and this thing, and that thing, and... then you should also agree that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old." What if they don't agree that sodium and chlorine combine to produce salt, or even that the sun rises in the east? In that case, yes, there isn't much to say.
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Theologically Naive Examinations of Religion
This, for some reason, is the objection most dear to the more sophisticated critics of Dennett, Dawkins, and Harris. There are two related ideas here: there is the standard cheap-shot of "What made X an expert in Y?" (As if only astrologists should ever be allowed to judge the claims of astrology!) And then there is the more credible, at least at first blush, idea that important and serious theological ideas and arguments have been completely ignored by these writers. Once again, first some examples. Here's the very first paragraph of renowned Marxist-and-psychoanalytic-literary-theorist Terry Eagleton's review of Dawkins (gently entitled "Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching") in the London Review of Books:
Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don’t believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday.
Much of the Eagleton review continues in this vein, getting more hysterical, if anything:
What, one wonders, are Dawkins’s views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them? Or does he imagine like a bumptious young barrister that you can defeat the opposition while being complacently ignorant of its toughest case?
And this is H. Allen Orr, also reviewing Dawkins, in the New York Review of Books:
...The God Delusion [is] a book that never squarely faces its opponents. You will find no serious examination of Christian or Jewish theology in Dawkins's book (does he know Augustine rejected biblical literalism in the early fifth century?), no attempt to follow philosophical debates about the nature of religious propositions (are they like ordinary claims about everyday matters?), no effort to appreciate the complex history of interaction between the Church and science (does he know the Church had an important part in the rise of non-Aristotelian science?), and no attempt to understand even the simplest of religious attitudes (does Dawkins really believe, as he says, that Christians should be thrilled to learn they're terminally ill?).
These gentlemen do protest far too much, but before I get to them let me say another thing: the problem with arguing with a religious person, say a Christian, or to be even more specific, say a Catholic, is that you have no idea what she actually believes. If I tell you that I believe science is correct, you can be pretty sure about a lot of my very detailed beliefs. You can be sure, just to beat this example to death, that I believe that sodium and chlorine can combine to form table salt. You know that I believe that the Earth is close to four billion years old, that the sun is a star, etc., etc. You can be fairly certain that I don't pick and choose my beliefs in some arbitrary fashion: "Yes, sodium is real, but uranium is just a figure of speech!" On the contrary, as soon as one begins to corner a religious person about one of their more egregiously silly beliefs, they weasel out with some version of "Oh, but I don't take that literally!" Transubstantiation may be literally true to some, and only a metaphor to other Catholics. Same with pretty much everything, so it is just not possible to examine every way to conceptualize even just the concept of God, which is just one of the things that theology has spent centuries doing. Religious concepts tend to be slippery as they need not cohere even with each other, much less experience, or dare-I-say-it, reality. The constraints (if any) on how one conceptualizes God, or the afterlife, or hell, or sin, are very loose. No one can be expected to argue with every single one of these conceptions that an army of theologians may have produced over millenia.
But maybe they have produced some particularly significant arguments or ideas worth grappling with. Yeah, sure, maybe they have. What are they? It is remarkable that for all the times this objection, that writers such as Dennett and Dawkins and Harris are ignoring sophisticated theologians, is raised, not a single actual idea or argument due to these theologians is ever mentioned. Why not just say, Mr. Eagleton, what exactly in Aquinas, Duns Scotus, Eriugena, Rahner, and Moltmann refutes Dawkins's arguments? Unless this is an empty and desperate display of erudition, why not bring up how these subtle examinations of grace and hope might confute Dawkins? Orr can scarcely believe that Dawkins has written a whole book about religion without bringing up William James and Ludwig Wittgenstein, for example. Well, Professor Orr, he chose not to, but you are certainly free to show us how James and Wittgenstein weaken Dawkins's case. Why don't you? No, really, just think about it: suppose you are trying to argue that astrology is nonsense, and someone keeps piping up that you haven't read this or that work by this or that astrologer (especially if there are millenia worth of output from "astrologians"). What will you say? I would say, you bring it up. Show me how what someone wrote weakens my case.
-----***-----
It's All About the Politics, Stupid
Actually, this is the only objection to Dennett, Dawkins, and Harris to which I am at least somewhat sympathetic. Roughly, it is really a set of related ideas which go something like this:
- I am smart and well-educated enough to know what you are trying to tell me about religion.
- Only people like me will read your book, and you are not telling us anything new, so at the least, your book is boring.
- The only reason you have written this book now, is that many in the West are fearful of a resurgence of a highly politicized, dangerous, terroristic, and fundamentalist Islam and the infamously imminent "clash of civilizations", and this is therefore an opportune time to attack religion in general and sell books.
- Your examination of religion ignores the victory in the West of an economic system which has resulted in such a skewed distribution of not only wealth, but even opportunity for education, access to healthcare, etc., that to ease their noisy lives of desperation, more and more people turn for solace to religion.
- And similarly, your focus on the violent and evil acts of a minority of religious extremists, for example, in the Islamic world, with no mention of the systematic political and economic violence done to their societies in the name of strategic considerations, oil, spreading the shining light of democracy, etc., allows your readers (at least the less religious ones) in the West to ignore these latter political considerations and blame everything bad happening in, for example, the middle-east, on the evil irrationality of religion. [This doesn't apply only to the middle-east or Islam, but anywhere there is religious conflict. The idea is that even if religion were to disappear, there are underlying political injustices that would need to be addressed, and too great a focus on religion allows us to ignore these.]
I do not agree with items 1, 2, or 3 of this list, but feel that there is something to the last two. The first step is wrong because there is much new material in these books (more on that below), and there are new ways of thinking about familiar problems. The second step is clearly not true, as the books have been on best-seller lists and it is clear that a lot of religious people have read them, to their benefit (even if not with full agreement) I am sure. The third step is just silliness, and anytime is a good time to fight irrationality! As for steps four and five, although one cannot dictate to people what their books should be about, given the demographics of religion (at least in America) and the overall salience of religion in the current geopolitical mess, one wishes that these authors would have had something to say about the factors that have produced a resurgence of such hypocrisies as evangelical Christianity, such odious forms of faith as jihadist-fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam, etc., or at the very least acknowledged that religion does not exist in a vacuum, but is shaped and exploited in reaction to political and other realities. Their not addressing this at all leaves one with the uneasy feeling that an elephant in the room has been ignored.
-----***-----
So, we come back now to the question with which I started these brief observations: why are so many people wrong? We tend to agree with humans everywhere about most things, after all. This is not just true in the realm of knowledge (because of which science is the same everywhere, as I mentioned earlier), but the other two classical realms as well: the moral and the aesthetic. Leaving religion aside, we find the same things morally repugnant: incest, murder, rape, dishonesty, theft, etc., and we even find the same things beautiful: sunsets, poetry, music, Angelina Jolie, whatever. Why then is religion the exception? Well, because religion can be seen as just one more phenomenon in the natural world, this, I believe, is properly a scientific question, and the greatest value of the books I have been discussing has, at least for me, been to present new scientific work in anthropology, in psychology, in neuroscience, and many other fields, which bears on this question and is suggestive of possible answers. I wrote a short account giving a flavor of some of these developments here, if you are interested.
My previous Monday Musings can be seen here.
UPDATE: In all fairness to Deets, he has a post at his own blog about his views on all this here.
Posted by Abbas Raza at 08:57 PM | Permalink










Comments
I'd just like to put in a word for an intelligent critical chapter-by-chapter review of Dawkins by Christopher Heard at Higgaion. It's taking him a while but he does do some detailed analysis of Dawkins's arguments, which at least show that Dawkins needed a stern editor.
http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/index.php?paged=5
Posted by: Harold | Apr 11, 2007 4:14:11 PM
"The Hindus MUST see the Christian belief system as being wrong, at least in some areas, since the Christian belief system asserts that Hinduism is wrong."
No, they believe it is the right system for that person. You're very big on telling me what Hindus MUST do, have you ever known many? Studied that path?
Ramakrishna, who went on to practice most major religious paths after attaining enlightenment, may be a good place for you to start - of course you don't have to believe any of it but his explanations exceed my own attempts.
You seem mighty keen to project your own intolerances onto a large group of people who have not one single thing in common with your worldview.
"Except that we're dealing with entities without testable properties."
Which brings me back to the point I raised with you, years ago when I still had some enthusiasm for this - how does "Prove it" demolish anyone's religious beliefs?
I'd like it if some bright spark somewhere had come up with a way of testing this, perhaps by observing effects (the effects of prayer and meditation are every bit as tangible as the effects of, for example, alcohol or love) and that's what I asked about.
Sure, I wasted my time, but if the issue of proof is at hand it deserves examination.
If I said to you, say on this page where you're not within earshot of my environment, that I can hear music, and you said "tell me what it weighs, or I won't believe you and you're wrong" and we later established that music cannot be weighed, your argument against my experience of hearing it falls rather flat.
It would be rather more reasonable to ask me if anyone else has heard it, if I can describe it, or if there is any likelihood that a source of music exists at my location.
Only when you've eliminated those possibilities could you safely say I was imagining it.
Intangibles like fear, love, faith, exist in a meaningful way for most of us, when we discuss them we tend to know what the other person is referring to, yet they are only measurable in their effects.
The same is true of god, via the effects of religious belief.
Therefore, for you to:
a. say that religious belief can be demolished by a request for proof that you yourself admit is impossible for anyone to provide, and;
b. to say that you don't believe in something so everyone who does MUST (I'll copy your capitalisation) be wrong, puts you right on the plane of the fanatics and intolerant types who have given religion a bad name throughout history.
If I asked you to provide photographic proof that last week, on a given day, you did not commit a crime, and that proof was in no way possible for you, I would hardly have a case that you must therefore have committed it.
I can't think of any more ways to explain the flaws in your "prove it" statement to you, which you describe as "The magic incantation, capable of crushing all religious beliefs in one fell swoop." - perhaps you may like to ask another grown-up if they can help, if you still don't understand why it's flawed.
And I don't actually want to spend any more time dismantling your nonsense because maybe you need it more than I need to engage with this any more.
Posted by: Nat | Apr 11, 2007 4:16:30 PM
Deets--
We are back to "God" being metaphysical---
One cannot prove or disprove the premise.
Sure, Bronze Age creation myths can be rejected as childish and embarrassing, and no one with reasonable sized a forebrain can believe, or conversely, not see evolution as valid and observable (one can watch the aids virus select and evolve in a matter of a very short time, empirically)---
I'm with the Buddha on this one--
One should not even argue about unanswerable questions, but they can and should be discussed as pure speculation.
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 11, 2007 5:42:17 PM
Nat and Cyberpunk hero,
As fate would have it, this article just appeared today on one of my favorite blogs:
http://souljerky.com/articles/invention_of_hinduism.html
(the article is a few years old, but extremely pertinent to your discussion).
Scott,
I think you misread my last post. Yes, God is a metaphysical proposition, but so is atheism. Why won't you apply the same standard? What would Buddha say?
Posted by: Deets | Apr 11, 2007 6:18:47 PM
Deets:
Entirely right--
Atheism cannot be proved or disproved-(at least not at this point, not necessary unsolvable in the future, as the Buddha would say "don't cling to that one, you will suffer")--
I'm with you Deets
I just don't want you to suffer.
Scott
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 11, 2007 6:34:48 PM
No, they believe it is the right system for that person.
Which is exactly another example of the incompatibility. The Christian belief system believes it is the right belief for everyone. The Hindu belief system disagrees. The two clearly disagree.
I don't know how to put this much more simply. If the Hindu belief is that the Christian God is an aspect of Brahman, and the Christian belief that the Christian God is not an aspect of any entity, how does the Hindu belief not include the implicit assertion that the Christian belief is incorrect? I fail to see any support for this conclusion outside what you have been asserting.
Which brings me back to the point I raised with you, years ago when I still had some enthusiasm for this - how does "Prove it" demolish anyone's religious beliefs?
I'm curious what you mean by "demolish anyone's religious beliefs". Are you referring to demolishment as in convincing someone to renounce their beliefs, or as in an argument that demonstrates the lack of validity in a belief? I, of course, was referring to the latter (as I think is apparent in my comments) but your phrasing is a bit unclear.
I'd like it if some bright spark somewhere had come up with a way of testing this, perhaps by observing effects (the effects of prayer and meditation are every bit as tangible as the effects of, for example, alcohol or love) and that's what I asked about.
What sort of effects? As I mentioned earlier, deities are defined in a way as to be untestable. They have no repeatable and testable effects.
If I said to you, say on this page where you're not within earshot of my environment, that I can hear music, and you said "tell me what it weighs, or I won't believe you and you're wrong" and we later established that music cannot be weighed, your argument against my experience of hearing it falls rather flat.
It would be rather more reasonable to ask me if anyone else has heard it, if I can describe it, or if there is any likelihood that a source of music exists at my location.
But you see, you can provide some sort of concrete evidence. Testimony from independant sources, observation of direct evidence, etc.
Without evidence, there is no way to know that a thing exists.
ntangibles like fear, love, faith, exist in a meaningful way for most of us, when we discuss them we tend to know what the other person is referring to, yet they are only measurable in their effects.
"Measurable in their effects." Right there. That's the difference. Love, fear, etc. have effects. Measurable effects. Effects that can be predicted and tested.
The same is true of god, via the effects of religious belief.
That, frankly, is ridiculous. Religious belief has no measurable effects that can be reasonably attributed to deities.
Posted by: Cyberpunk Hero | Apr 11, 2007 7:09:35 PM
Deets, thank you for the link to that article. It was a very interesting read.
Posted by: Cyberpunk Hero | Apr 11, 2007 8:15:54 PM
That, frankly, is ridiculous. Religious belief has no measurable effects that can be reasonably attributed to deities.
People who perform prayer studies would disagree with you on that.
Posted by: Alon Levy | Apr 11, 2007 9:51:23 PM
That, frankly, is ridiculous. Religious belief has no measurable effects that can be reasonably attributed to deities.
People who perform prayer studies would disagree with you on that.
Okay, saw this one coming.
Even if studies were to prove that prayer has some sort of power, it still doesn't mean anything for theism or religion - just that prayer has power. Any connection between an effect of prayer upon the world is, at best, only indirectly connected to the validity of religious belief. To say, "These people prayed, and it seems like their prayer influenced reality, so God must have done something" is an unnecessary stretch.
Posted by: Cyberpunk Hero | Apr 11, 2007 10:00:13 PM
Nat--there are fundamentalist Hindu sects out there. They are quite willing to kill unbelievers. This means that Hinduism has triumphalist aspects, regardless of YOUR interpretation of Hinduism. If you want to argue for your interpretation of Hinduism, I suggest you go argue with them. You can, of course, argue what they believe is not true Hinduism. This would put you in the company of moderate Muslims, moderate Christians, etc, etc. When they agree with you, come back to tell us what Hinduism is. This should keep you busy for some time.
To all those who think God has to be disproven: the default position for any claim is disbelief until proven. This is why the British and American justice system insist that someone is innocent until proven guilty--the onus of proof is on the state to prove that THIS person committed the act. Postive claims require positive proof, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Materialism and atheism are simply default logical positions, and will remain so until someone actually provides proof of the existence of God. Despite innumerable attempts over thousands of years, no one ever has. With this track record, the smart bet is that they never will.
Regarding points 4 and 5, the skewed access to social services in uniquely American, which is why religiousity is rising in the States but not in Canada or Europe (anxiety promotes religiousity.) But as for the follies of foreign policy, although Western foreign policy has been appalling in the Middle East, Islam has been a dead culture for 900 years, culturally, scientifically, politically, and socially irrelevant. This is why the Middle East has been a chew toy for the great powers, and will remain so for the forseeable future. Crediting the West for circumstances which predate its rise is not just historically wrong, it's more than a little arrogant.
Posted by: Elentar | Apr 11, 2007 11:57:37 PM
Tom,
Thanks for the link. I must say that I found much more name-calling than reasoned response at that link.
Here I salute the editors of 3quarksdaily for playing an extremely rare and admirable role: that of the gracious and civil champion in the atheism/theism debate.
(Far more gracious and civil than either Dawkins or his critics...)
Posted by: BW | Apr 12, 2007 8:50:55 AM
BW-
"Far more gracious and civil than either Dawkins or his critics..."
You obviously have not visited Dawkins web site--
A remarkable diverse range of opinion, openly displayed on the front page--
Of course, the propaganda line will never acknowledge this. Harris is remarkable in his restraint and civility.
But, this is threatening to people clinging to a superstition based reality.
But, agreed, I salute 3Quarks for their open forum.
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 12, 2007 2:08:25 PM
"But, this is threatening to people clinging to a superstition based reality."
The question you and everyone else ignores (and I'm pretty sure you'll all continue to do so) is whether there is anyone who doesn't cling to the equivalent of "superstition based reality"
Habits of mind are more dangerous than superstitions per se. The 20th century showed us that. Arguing with the faithful is just a way for rationalists to avoid the real problem: that knowledge isn't wisdom.
Nerds have a hard time with that one. And the humanities is now full of nerds and geeks. Historians will be writing about that sooner or later. In the meantime the humanities are becoming a sidebar to the continuation of the academiic teleology of Sputnik.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 12, 2007 4:32:53 PM
BW
Yes there is certainly an element of name-calling in the comments on Dawkins's site. But there are still plenty of reasoned responses tucked away among the others. Which is the important bit, considering your first comment implied that Plantinga's article was difficult for atheists to reply to...
And in a small defence to the name-calling, nearly every one of the anti Dawkins reviews presents the same tired old theist arguments and straw man criticisms, I can understand why some get fed up responding in detail to them.
Posted by: Tom | Apr 13, 2007 7:59:29 AM
Seth
I'm interested in your comments, even though I'm sure I'm not completely understanding them.
Surely you don't hold say fundamentalist Christianity and "rational" atheism as equal in terms of validity (an equivalent "superstition based reality")?
Posted by: Tom | Apr 13, 2007 9:44:06 AM
I don't argue with religious people. It's pointless to debate those who argue from faith. You seem unable to grasp that. Your continued willingness to argue with them seems as illogical as their belief. How can you claim to exhibit reason if you are unable to walk a way from such a useless argument?
As often as not the sort of people who challenge the faithful are blind to their own assumptions. Richard Posner calls himself an atheist, and says his economic philosophy is one based on reason. He will maintain that even when empirical evidence contradicts his "law."
Anyone can be seduced by ideas, or by hope.
That's the problem; and avoiding that discussion, as Dawkins and Posner do does more harm than good. They claim a mantle of reason that no one has a right to claim. The 20th century was full of such people, and history has not judged them kindly.
You take it on faith that people are capable of reason. You take it faith that you are as well.
You begin with a mistake.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 13, 2007 3:28:26 PM
... are capable of a consistent reason.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 13, 2007 4:56:17 PM
You seem to think you know a bit about me, which is interesting coming from someone who claims that knowledge is so elusive. I can recognise a pointless debate when I see one, and this is definitely one.
I can appreciate the philosophical point, but have little time for its application. Like it or not we all have to deal with this reality and decide how to act. I'm glad that there are people that have faith enough in their reason to work towards a cure for cancer, or debate those who think their God has a problem with condoms when we are faced with the reality of AIDS ravaged Africa.
For what it's worth I have seen both Dawkins and Sam Harris acknowledge that reason/science is based on assumptions. Harris says it well:
The fact that the underpinnings of our knowledge are in some sense inscrutable (and may remain so), the fact that Hume's worries make sense, the fact that Wittgenstein can say things like "our spade is turned," does not place every spurious claim to knowledge on an equal footing with science. The discomfort induced in mathematics by Godel does not make the doctrine of Mormonism even slightly more plausible. There is still a difference between jumping a puddle and walking on water.
Cheers.
Posted by: Tom | Apr 14, 2007 7:05:20 AM
Just because I take it for granted that most people with driver's licenses are capable of driving a car safely, that doesn't mean I trust their sense of reason.
You speak in absolute terms, of reason and not. You would call the damaging caste system in India a product of religion. I would call the policies of the IMF and the World Bank over the past 40 years the product of institutional culture and habits of mind. The invention of antibiotics was a breakthrough in modern science, their rampant over-prescription is he product of of faith in the face of reason.
How do you teach people to change their behavior? If you're interested in helping them, you'll learn that there are all sorts of tricks to play and that often people require education in what would otherwise be common sense. This is true of all of us in various ways. A friend of mine gets in screaming fights with an old friend from Harvard Medical School who still defends Bush. And there are scientists who go to church. and who call the West Bank "Judea and Samaria" Silly I know. And sometimes criminal.
So you could try to find ways of engaging these people (sometimes you need to have them arrested) or you could just keep lecturing them But lecturing doesn't do much, unless you're only interested in feeling superior.
This is all pretty basic empiricism
Posted by: Seth Edenbaum | Apr 14, 2007 10:32:11 AM
Seth- Ah yes, postmodern relativism. It is all grey--
In my world antibiotics work, atomic bombs explode, and the world was not created in 6 days--
I must not be post modern.
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 14, 2007 11:29:48 AM
Scott,
Obviously you don't know how to read.
Quote something I wrote back to me and tell me what you think it means. Otherwise this is as useless as arguing with a priest.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 14, 2007 11:45:24 AM
Tom,
Harris is a case study in the lost distinction between knowledge and understanding. (That's what you get when human mentation is re-imagined as mere propagation of "memes" without reflection or creativity). This is a man who reportedly practiced Zen Buddhism for 20 years, and yet advocates pre-emptively nuking muslim countries and torturing captives for information. Zen is notoriously prickly, but that's a bit out of scope.
No one I know of, not "postmodernists," not religious zealots, not even nihilists, want to place "every spurious claim to knowledge on an equal footing with science."
Scott, the "shades of gray" metaphor has been caricatured to represent a unitary field of gray goo, without distinction (as in the not-so-clever "how postmodernists see the world" cartoon), but this is not what "shades of gray" means. It really is "all gray" if by gray you mean the "grayscale." I'm sure you saw the news that gonorrhea in America has become resistant to another class of antibiotics. So, yes, in the abstract they "work," but in application it's nowhere near simple.
Posted by: Deets | Apr 14, 2007 1:54:39 PM
Seth---
Yes, you are wallowing in relativism---
"The question you and everyone else ignores (and I'm pretty sure you'll all continue to do so) is whether there is anyone who doesn't cling to the equivalent of "superstition based reality"
Habits of mind are more dangerous than superstitions per se. The 20th century showed us that. Arguing with the faithful is just a way for rationalists to avoid the real problem: that knowledge isn't wisdom."
However knowledge does create antibiotics (we live in world based on evolution, resistance does happen-so do new antibiotics- welcome to "Darwin's Dangerous Idea")
Other people believe in faith healing---
From personal experience, science, and observation, I'll go with the antibiotics.
The "superstition Based Reality" people can
die of infection, as did a huge portion of the human race before antibiotics.
Thinks are not equal--
Relativism is a meme infected on the intellectual establishment in the 1980's.
Deets-- Antibiotic resistance is evolution in action---
remember Codependent orgination form Buddahism 101?
Nothing grey about it--
Messy feedback loops--
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 14, 2007 11:11:24 PM
Deets, just a point about what you said about Harris:
"and yet advocates pre-emptively nuking muslim countries and torturing captives for information."
On torture, I think that you are being a bit unfair to Harris and his views. His point is a bit more complex than just "advocating torture".
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/
With nuking Muslim countries, can you provide a source for that? I would be very surprised if his views are as black and white as you portray (shades of grey maybe?)
Posted by: Tom | Apr 15, 2007 1:38:38 AM
You literally ignore what you want to.
"However knowledge does create antibiotics"
...and faith leads to their overuse.
I mentioned that before Deets did, but no matter.
You write like an reactionary Catholic. You're less interested in helping people than in proving them wrong. If relativism means an ability to respond to people's beliefs in a way that makes it possible to help them, than I'm a relativist. But of course I'd never let you near any government discussion of health care or drug policy. You'd be a danger to yourself and the rest of us. Empiricism doesn't interest you any more than it interests Donald Rumsfeld.
"Relativism is a meme infected on the intellectual establishment in the 1980's."
And you don't know much history either.
The imagination is a dangerous thing, but not as dangerous as the lack of it. Rational actor theory is more dangerous than born again christianity, that's for damn sure.
I'm done. I say it's pointless to argue with people of faith and I've been doing it all day.
So long kid.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 15, 2007 1:39:43 AM
Seth--
Agreed
I've played tennis with you for long enough with the net down. I can only let you have it up on the return for so long, then the absurdity of the game is exposed.
This is like being in a Ibsen play.
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 15, 2007 5:19:41 AM
Tom,
I don't have a page reference (I don't own "End of Faith"), but the operative quotes are:
"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them."
and
"In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own."(my emphasis)
This have been quoted by more than one reviewer, and I don't think you'll find them anywhere in the Diamond Sutras.
Now, granted, these are conditional statements. He's not just saying "more rubble, less trouble." But does it really matter what the context is when one is arguing for a hypothetical nuclear first strike?
As for torture, I've read the clarifications. My response is that "successful" torture is a fantasy. (See this excellent article by Jim Henley for more on this). I mean the word fantasy in two ways: both as delusion (regarding its effectiveness), and as wish fulfillment. There's something more than pragmatism going on here, and it has something to do, in my opinion, with inflating the boogeyman aspect of "radical Islam" in order to entrench Harris's own position as the rational agonist.
Posted by: Deets | Apr 15, 2007 12:34:16 PM
Scott,
What is this "net" you are so fond of mentioning? Can you point to concrete examples of where Seth (or I) hold a double standard over the rules of argument? Concrete only, please, and from this conversation only. Please.
Posted by: Deets | Apr 15, 2007 12:41:18 PM
"The imagination is a dangerous thing, but not as dangerous as the lack of it. Rational actor theory is more dangerous than born again christianity, that's for damn sure."
While this may be a interesting cocktail party discussion, it is playing with the net down--
It is speculation, and cannot be backed up,
and, forgive me, is playing in the shallow end of the pool with no consequences.
There are consequences with a staph infection, or flying at 50,000 feet--
The net is up again, and every time you fly, you have accepted my perspective is correct.
Relativism is fun, and makes for interesting debate--
But it is just that- debate
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 15, 2007 3:05:32 PM
Back for one comment:
Replace "every" with "many" and I know a lot of people who want to place claims to knowledge on an equal footing with science: priests, economists and a few analytical philosophers.
A person may be a considered to be (or expected to be) a rational actor in his field of expertise, as an auto mechanic is expected to be logical while working on an engine, but that says nothing about his behavior the rest of the time. Scott's logic is the logic of technical professionalism as Platonism, and there's no need to go into zen or any other esoterica to point out the fallacy.
Also, he uses tropes he picks up elsewhere: nets being down, relativism and the 80's etc. He cuts and pastes everything but the anger.
Posted by: seth edenbaum | Apr 15, 2007 3:20:27 PM
Deets:
"I don't think you'll find them anywhere in the Diamond Sutras."
I don't think the meditators like myself will survive.
Pinker has convinced me of that--
"But no need to survive" (in fact it is highly unlikely).
Obviously Seths knowledge of Buddhism is limited, and not from direct experience--
Of course I don't know that first hand, so I'm as speculative and judgmental as his superstitions and assumptions are.
I will see what pillow time tonight brings,
or not brings.
metta
Scott
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 15, 2007 4:09:11 PM
esoteric |ˌesəˈterik| adjective intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest : esoteric philosophical debates.
maybe I will hang around. This is becoming so absurd it's kind of fun.
The imagination is a dangerous thing, but not as dangerous as the lack of it. Rational actor theory is more dangerous than born again christianity, that's for damn sure.
"While this may be a interesting cocktail party discussion, it is playing with the net down--
It is speculation, and cannot be backed up,"
We we could get into some economic history here. Does the name Joe Stiglitz ring a bell?
Maybe one of the other, official geniuses here can rescue Scott, or explain recent debates in economics.
To a tune by Joe Walsh: Just a couple of Or-di-na-ry ra-tio-nal-guys, or: "Hey dude check the microscope!"
Or you could go ax Max [He's my friend.]
Posted by: I. Calvino | Apr 15, 2007 7:20:25 PM
Calvino--
Hey, I like Max! I Check Max out everyday.
A little market centric, but, hey, the causal conditions of just hanging out in his world would do that.
I can't be saved---
But Jesus does save-- At Bank of America.
Give Max a thumbs up for me.
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 15, 2007 9:34:25 PM
Deets:
One last thing. I saw your reference to Alan Watts on your site.
I had Alan Watts for a scholar in residence for a year, and met with him weekly. Very interesting man, and exploring new ideas very early in the game, but had the usual human faults.
Don't get attached to Alan---
I concerned about you suffering
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 15, 2007 9:58:13 PM
I interpret Harris's comments on torture to do with highlighting the double standard with respect to society's acceptance of "collateral damage" in war. I think it's a good point and that it raises difficult moral questions that are worth discussing.
The reason I raised the points is only because I thought it was an unfair simplification of what his stated views are. The situation in which he talked about a nuclear strike is so hypothetical that I don't agree at all that he could be said to be advocating nuclear strikes in the way you implied. I think the context does matter.
As for whether he is inflating the danger of fundamentalist Islam for his own gains, you may be right, there would certainly be extra book sales in it for him. I do know that some of the surveys that come out of Islamic communities are very scary and are worth highlighting though.
With him having views that are contrary to Buddhist texts, it's not like Harris claims to be a Buddhist, so I don't see why it is an issue that some/any of his views run against Buddhist philosophy.
Well that's me done, time to stop reading this post-modernist stuff and get back to good old religion bashing. Or not.
Cheers.
Posted by: Tom | Apr 16, 2007 12:42:23 AM
Max Sawicky:"A little market centric"
I've been arguing with an idiot.
Posted by: Cosimo Piavosco di Rondo | Apr 16, 2007 12:28:43 PM
Cosimo--
Don't let that Guy Fawkes mask fool you--
Max is a closet market fundamentalist--
He just doesn't know it---
Scott
Posted by: Scott Ahlf | Apr 16, 2007 1:55:38 PM
Dawkins et al. are upset about 9/11. By their accounts it's the worst thing that ever befell humanity, WWII and many other catastrophic events notwithstanding (no irrationality here mind you.) Who's to blame? (Not the politicians and policy makers!) Find a dog to kick. Religion is an easy target, let's take it down a notch or 10 or more. Blah blah blah.
Let's find another dog to kick.
How about science? What are some other big problems we face today (besides terrorism, which is and can only be the most awful of awfuls, because it's "casued" by religion.)
Lets say, destruction of environment, global warming, thermonuclear weapons, all weapons of mass destruction,
rampant obesity, cancers of every form,
inhuman treatment and experimentation on both humans and animals.
Now, I don't suppose science has anything to do with these horrors does it?
Joe N.
Posted by: Joe N. | Apr 16, 2007 3:18:30 PM
"Now, I don't suppose science has anything to do with these horrors does it?"
Science is a tool, nothing more. Tools are neither responsible, nor irresponsible.
Posted by: Cosimo Piavosco di Rondo | Apr 16, 2007 3:29:29 PM
Cop out. "Science is a tool, nothing more..." said in a wistful Katherine Hepburn sort of way...
Science is a belief system, a culture, a way of life. And its as often wrong as any other.
Even when its right its wrong, for example in promoting nutritional fads and entire industries devoted to servicing those fads that have done nothing to improve the
actual health of Americans.
What if it's all One Big Fat Lie?
Do I dispute the science behind all tehse nutrional studies? Not necessarily (although fraud in Science is becaoming more a problem.) But even so, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. And science is always and forever operayting witha little knowledge.
yet again, we still don't really know the long term consequences of profligate use of antibiotics. To assume that it has to be a good long term result is folly.
Posted by: Joe N. | Apr 16, 2007 3:40:00 PM
Science is a belief system, a culture, a way of life.
Wait, no. That's not even remotely true.
Posted by: Cyberpunk Hero | Apr 16, 2007 8:54:03 PM
Joe N : "Let's find another dog to kick.
How about science? What are some other big problems we face today (besides terrorism, which is and can only be the most awful of awfuls, because it's "casued" by religion.)"
Elentar : "But as for the follies of foreign policy, although Western foreign policy has been appalling in the Middle East, Islam has been a dead culture for 900 years, culturally, scientifically, politically, and socially irrelevant."
I wonder what Edward Said would have said about the above were he around today. The editors here at 3D have been great, but it's hard to imagine how views such as these are any different from the ones we ascribe to the 'Fundamentalists'. That such statements are now taken to be self evident truths without being challenged is what may have led Said to write 'Orientalism' :)
Cheers.
Posted by: Shahzad H | Apr 16, 2007 11:14:55 PM
"Science is a belief system.."
Right. That must be why physics PhDs are required to affirm the truth of the theories they have studied before graduation.
Please stop spreading the lie.
Posted by: ars | Apr 17, 2007 2:42:25 AM
I wasn't clear enough [I should not need to be]
Mathematicians may call themselves formalists but they think of themselves as Platonists (did I say that already?)
For some people automobiles and the internal combustion engine are are a "way of life." To criticise that choice is not to say that cars don't run on gas. Science and the "culture of science" are not the same thing.
Does even one of you understand the difference?
Posted by: Cosimo Piavosco di et Cetera | Apr 17, 2007 11:07:03 PM
I left this post yesterday but perhaps it seems to have been lost. Forgive me for posting again.
I am an atheist who has done a lot of political work with left wing religious folk, mostly around issues concerning Central America. I was a pretty "intolerant" atheist when I began working with these political friends but they taught me to be otherwise. By "intolerant" I mean the following: I thought that because religion is one of the "chains of illusion" (to borrow a phrase from Erich Fromm) one needed to condemn and oppose religion in order to promote "free thought" and in order to deal with "reality". But my religious friends taught me a few things (mostly unintentionally) about myself. Mostly what they taught me is that none of us are free from the chains of illusion, and if you free yourself from religion, there are other areas of self-deception and other delusional belief systems that can easily substitute. Here are a few other lessons from my practical experiences while working with religious people..
1) It is necessary to distinguish "faith" in general from "religious" faith.
This is very much like your first point in regard to Deets. And you do concede that he has a point, but that he goes to far. But I would like to add one more thought to this.
Faith can be based in reason, but what-ever "faith" is, it is mostly "non-rational". For some reason people such as Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky, for example, have a deep "faith" that people can think for themselves and that if they think for themselves and act together politically in a democratic way their lives will improve. I am not sure that there is much evidence for this belief.
Faith in "something" is a necessity, even if it is faith in rationality, or that life is worth living, or the idea that people working together can make the world better. The people I worked with did not bring me to believe in their religion or their God, but they showed me that their are deep wells of faith that are not quite "rational." I do not know why people who face possible murder continue to do things like organize for human rights or organize unions but they do and they often explain it to me as a form of "faith." I do not believe that you need to be religious to have this kind of faith but I do not think that it is wholly rational. It is perhaps partly rational.
Further it is necessary to distinguish superstition, irrationalism, and obscurantism from religion in general for historical reasons that I will come to.
2) Religion, Institutions, Ideology: It is probably best to distinguish "religion in general" from any particular form of "organized religion" or from the various social and cultural institutions of religion that form a part of the status quo (particularly the "state") in any given community or society. One of my main problems with Dawkins is that he does not seem to recognized that a "religion with state power" or a religion with allied with "political" power is often dangerous. This is allied with his other blindness for the fact that religion allied with state-power is often "simply" ideology by other means and that the real question from a "naturalistic," point of view, is "why is ideological thinking necessary for state power and institutional mobilization." This question also can be applied when analyzing other human institutions such as business corporations.
The people I worked with in Central American solidarity groups were involved in "organized" religion but for the main part they were setting up their own "base" institutions that worked outside of the accepted status quo. In many ways they looked at themselves as oppositional to the accepted institutions of their own religion. The character of such an oppositional attitude from within a religious orientation can be either "good" or "bad", oppressive or partially liberatory depending on the historical circumstances. It is precisely these historical circumstances which are ignored by Dawkins, though not by all of us atheists.
As an example let me point to the Anabaptists, in their time of historical emergence. They fought vigorously for the separation of Church and State and for such ideas that children should decide for themselves, only when they came of age, if they should be baptized or not -- two ideas that Dawkins vigorously endorses. The "heresy" of the Anabaptists was that they did not believe in established "authority", they believed that individuals (within a "loving" community) should interpret religious doctrines for themselves, that children should not be foisted with religion but should be "baptized" by their own choice when they are old enough to chose "belief." This was their stated "ideology". Let me suggest that many of the beliefs that we as atheists and free thinkers have analogous reflections in many anti-establishment and anti-authoritarian religious movements, even in early Christianity. But when these religious movements become established, and especially when they ally themselves with state and institutional power, they become pro-authority and anti-"free thought." (Note: I am not saying that all non-established religious movements are anti-authoritarian, simply a significant portion of those we find through-out human history since the emergence of complex societies.)
Which brings me to a further point:
3) The battles against superstition and for reason -- battles that Dawkins seeks to carry-on -- have historically taken place from inside various religions, as movements for reform of the established religious institutions. Whether these movements were themselves free of superstition and exhibited high levels of rationality is another question. But it is a simple historical fact that what we would call "enlightened" modes of thinking were most often anti-establishment movements from within various religious systems -- in rebellion against the superstitions, irrationalities, and obscurantism of their day. This is wholly ignored by Dawkins, even when it was those very religious movements that first brought up many of the ideas he expresses.
It is my belief that all of us are prey to various kinds of irrationalism, obscurantism, superstition and other kinds of self-delusion and self-deception simply by the fact that we are human. When these self-delusions and self-deceptions take on a political or social form they are properly called "ideology" and often enough these ideologies have a religious expression.
Being atheists that we also fall prey to these ways of thinking, of course. I don't think that Dawkins is very much aware of how historically these ways of thinking have been fought by various people, religious as well as non-religious, in all ages and how these ways of thinking, believing, and acting are not explained by simply assuming that they are a product of "religious thinking."
4) Dawkins does not acknowledge or seem to know that "religious" thinking seems to be at the roots of much of scientific and rationalist thinking. Historically and culturally, religious thinking as a form of reaction against "orthodoxy", has often led to scientific thinking. I think one only has to look at the various ancient mathematicians in Europe, Asia and the Middle East to see this, or in more recent times Descartes and Newton.
Jerry Monaco
Posted by: Jerry Monaco | Apr 18, 2007 12:06:38 PM
Dear Jerry,
Thanks for your detailed and reasonable and thought-provoking comment above. Thanks also to all the other commenters for a stimulating discussion.
Posted by: Abbas Raza | Apr 18, 2007 5:08:47 PM
"Faith in "something" is a necessity"
No it is not.
Posted by: seth edenbaum etc. | Apr 19, 2007 12:49:46 AM
When I say "Science is a belief system, a culture, a way of life" and its caused mighty big problems I'm talking about how science *is* in the world today. You can make intellectual distinctions all you want but what I'm saying is *this* world we live in is largely the result of 400 years of science. Do I drive a car? Take anitbiotics? Use electronic gadgets (and the internet?) Of course - I'm living in this society and culture like anyone else. But that doesn't prevent me from also seeing that we stand on the precipice of unimaginable environmental destruction. Now, that has a lot more to do with science than with religion. You can say - well, that's how people have "used" science, that's not sciences fault. I don't see how such a statement is anything more than academic. Here's the rub, people will expect "science" to cure these problems. Now the real crux of a lot of these problems is exactly what I said - science is forever and always operating with a little knowledge. We couldn't foresee global warming when the first garage tinkerers brought forth the wonderful horseless carriage and people said "cool beans dude!" And when the scientists at Los Alamos brought forth the A-bomb some of them at least hoped it would end all wars. Hardly - and now some people in our government want to use them again. And who knows what will come out of genetic enegineering. You say - "Whatever - it may be good or bad but science is not to blame should it be bad, just the judgement of those folks who misuse good ol' science?"
Nonsense I say. Its the same old same old. Learn somethnig new and someone will use it full speed ahead damn the consequences. You think now we see that bad things (global warming) happen from teh law of unintended consequences we will mend our ways and not fall prey to such UNFOUNDED FAITH IN PROGRESS again? Hah!
Posted by: Joe N. | Apr 21, 2007 6:15:30 PM
To Cosimo:
You say: Science and the "culture of science" are not the same thing.
Same for religion- Dawkins wants to blame all sorts of nastiness on "Religion" per se - well, tit for tat then science must accept blame for all its nasty by-products.
Posted by: Joe N. | Apr 22, 2007 10:54:29 AM
Science is a tool.
If you want to call religion a tool I'll follow along quite happily, with the caveat that you would mean that it is a "social" tool: a method of maintaining social stability through the rule of and the interpretation of law: the Bible as foundational text. as constitution.
Mysticism is both the least interesting and the least important aspect of religion. The social aspects are quite rational [ask an anthropologist or Pope, either could explain.]
What you mean to do is defend is the rule of law against the rule of science and the culture of words against the culture of numbers.
I'm down with that. But the earth still revolves around the sun.
Posted by: Cosmo Cosmopolitan | Apr 24, 2007 12:23:14 AM
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