| ABOUT US | ARCHIVES | LINKS | RSS FEED | MONDAYS | |

3quarksdaily

An Eclectic Digest of Science, Art and Literature

« PERCEPTIONS: winter wonderland | Main | Europe's warmest autumn in 500 years »

December 04, 2006

A Case of the Mondays: Islam is Western

I really wish the people in the United States, Canada, and Europe who complain that Muslims are destroying Western culture looked at earlier groups of immigrants. The same things that people say about Muslims—that they're an alien culture, that they don't respect democratic values, that they treat women badly—were also said about Jewish, Italian, and Polish immigrants to the US a hundred years ago. The things people say about Islamic countries were true about a significant fraction of the West as late as the 1970s.

Islam and Christianity are so similar that they are almost, but not quite, the same religion. They're both monotheistic, with all the cultural implications this carries. They both have a progressive view of the world, in which good works and proselytization will create an increasingly better world. Their eschatologies are remarkably similar. Overall, Islam is hardly different from Protestant Christianity. It's entirely by accident that right now Muslim regions are more conservative and anti-democratic than Christian regions. Abstractly, there is nothing that prevents what is commonly called the West from eventually expanding as far south as the Sahara desert and as far east as Iran or even Pakistan and considering Islam as one of its two main religions. Just like there used to be a clearly defined Catholic West and a Protestant West, it makes sense to talk of a Christian West and a Muslim West.

More concretely, it's instructive to compare Muslims to Jews. When Jews started immigrating to the US from Eastern Europe en masse, they were significantly more conservative than Christians on most issues, including all of those that anti-Islamic Westerners consider now in their assessment of Islam. They were almost invariably ultra-Orthodox; secular European Jews typically accepted Zionism and emigrated to Israel or tried to assimilate into the surrounding mainstream culture. If the practices of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel today are any indication, these immigrants were insular, stayed in enclaves like Brooklyn Heights and Williamsburg, had birth rates that would put today's Arabs to shame, and treated women with about the same level of respect as Mormon polygamist sects. As late as 1963, Betty Friedan considered Jewish-Americans and Italian-Americans as examples of groups that were more patriarchal than mainstream America in The Feminine Mystique.

That Jews are now the most reliably liberal ethnic and religious group in the United States should suggest that the people who rant about the Islamization of Europe have a disturbingly myopic view of history. Jews had few structural barriers to integration; American cultural policy has always been neutral, neither suppressing minority-religion civil society institutions the way France does or shoving them down people's throats the way Israel does. Anti-Semitism ran rampant in the United States up until 1945, when people started feeling guilty about the Holocaust, but there were numerous institutions that Jews could turn to beside the synagogue. Still, the process took almost an entire century, and the integration of white Christian ethnic minorities, like Italians and Poles, took only slightly less. If a similar thing doesn't happen to European Muslims, Europe only has its countries' own cultural policies to blame.

In The Clash of Civilizations, Samuel Huntington defines Western civilization based on liberal democratic notions like democracy, human rights, and gender equality. Based on that, he proceeds to claim that the West consists only of the US, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and the Protestant and Catholic areas of Europe. Other people who focus on the cultural differences between Christians and Muslims are less explicit, but they still seem to believe similar things, perhaps with slightly tweaked civilizational boundaries.

The problem with Huntington's assessment is that it ignores the fact that it's just a coincidence of the last fifteen years that what he defines as the West is more or less contiguous with the part of the world that consists of democracies with at least moderate levels of gender equality. Thinkers in Protestant countries—including France, which has been at odds with the Papacy for centuries and fought on the Protestant side in the Thirty Years' War—developed liberalism at a time when Catholic countries were authoritarian backwaters. Contrary to Huntington's claim, the Enlightenment didn't begin in Catholic and Protestant Europe while skipping Orthodox Europe, Latin America, and the non-Christian world; it began in England and France, and spread from there to countries that in some cases had been conservative in culture and government for hundreds of years.

All this means that critics of Islam, such as Mark Steyn and Daniel Pipes, are letting prejudice overwhelm their sense of reason. If you look at the situation between 1990 and 2006, you'll indeed see that Muslims tend to be more religious, more misogynist, and more anti-democratic than American and European Christians. So what? If you looked at the situation between 1910 and 1925, you'd see that the same comparison applies to Jews and Catholics versus Protestants. It would even work better because you wouldn't have to contort yourself to explain why what you say are Western values are not found in Russia and most of Latin America; you'd need to explain why France should be grouped with Britain rather than with Spain, but that's far easier. That period of time saw emerging democracies in Germany and Czechoslovakia, both of which were dominated by Protestants (Prussians and Czechs respectively), compared with Italy's slip into fascism. Applying the same methodology that Christian and Jewish critics of Islam use, you'd conclude that Catholicism was a backward religion that threatened to take over the United States via immigration and high birth rates.

Of course, many people actually said that, not so much about Catholics as about Jews. For most of those, democratic values were just a front for anti-Semitism, because they were a good abbreviation for “Our culture.” American anti-Semites were likely to worship Hitler, even though his values were anything but what Americans consider American values. Western anti-Muslim writers seem to worship Putin's strong-arm treatment of Muslims, even as he destroys the democratic institutions they all profess to want to protect.

What is more, if Western values are defined by democracy, women's rights, and so on, then there is no such thing as the West, only more liberal people and less liberal people. Almost every country in the world has been democratic at one point; states usually abandon democracy only when it fails to work or when the military is strong enough to mount a coup, just like in inter-war Italy and Germany. People have been slower at adopting feminism, but given that Jews and Italians and Poles didn't do anything to lessen women's rights in the US, it's safe to conclude that the people who promulgate fears that Muslims will pressure Europe to adopt Sharia laws are more interested in hating foreigners than in telling the truth.

One approach is to conclude that civilizations the way Huntington defines them don't exist at all. Another is to say that they exist, but have nothing to do with liberal values. If the latter approach is correct, and Huntington's basic framework of basing civilizational boundaries on religion has merit, then Islam is part of the West (indeed, the lack of a mosque hierarchy makes Islam more Western than countries where the Pope gets to dictate abortion law). That inclusion should help shatter myths of Western cultural supremacy, which are surprisingly prevalent among people who claim that what they like about the West is its pluralism. Unfortunately, like their anti-Semitic ideological ancestors, anti-Muslims did not come to be what they are now due to any examination of evidence, but due to some form of prejudice.

Posted by Alon Levy at 03:55 AM | Permalink

Comments

I agree with the above. I would add that we can even go further in subverting the west vs. Islam argument by pointing out the crucial role Islamic civilization at some point played in preserving Greek and Roman heritage. Through their translations and interpretations, they made sure that it is not lost to "human" history. The enlightenment in Europe would not have happened (at least when it happened) without the contributions of Muslim scholars and philosophers like Ibn Rushd.

Amal A
www.arabwomanprogressivevoice.blogspot.com

Posted by: Amal A | Dec 4, 2006 9:25:07 AM

Czechs are Catholics. The Hussites lost the Thirty Years' War. Catholicism IS a backward religion that was threatening the civilzed world.

Posted by: Boris'Horses | Dec 4, 2006 9:52:00 AM

You wrote a very interesting article, but I tend to disagree with much of your statements. Firstly, you failed to mention how is Islam similar to Christianity. Yes, they are both monotheistic religions, but I fear the similarities end there. Granted, both Islam and Christianity contain the core of goodness, humanity and the love of divinity in their most basic forms, but both have different ideas of world order, and in many respects, the Islamic perception of world order collides dramatically with that of Christianity.
Just as history has witnessed violence and brutality from Christians, Muslims and Jews, the leaders of Christianity and Judaism found a way to a more pragmatic approach to the world, which doesn't collide with the existence and well-being of the other. Today's Muslim leaders, unfortunately, for the most part do not accept nor recognize the great changes in which our global society is emerged in for the past century. Muslim leaders and Muslim governments throughout the Middle East, choose to feed their followers and subjects with both hateful and twisted interpretations of Islam, and also ignorance and poverty so they can harness and then mobilize the rage of their public for their own narrow political and religious goals. In the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Iran, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Iran and many locations in north Africa, governments uphold and endorse the emotional and intellectual brainwashing of their own people, while those in power live in obscene wealth, they let their people live in poverty and subject their women to draconian religious laws. They decapitate adulterers and maim thieves, and stone heretics.
Yet all the illnesses of their societies are pointed at two sources that are vilified in the most atrocious ways, the Jews and the west, particularly America. With this emotional charge that became almost intrinsic in many Muslims today, they immigrate to Europe and the United States. In France, the most pro-Arab nation in Europe and the one with the largest and fastest growing Arab minority, the public's sympathy with the Muslim population is reducing significantly every year. Why? If the Muslims are just like any other minority, as you claim, why do the French and so many other nations (UK, Netherlands) develop such antagonism towards the Muslim specifically? Maybe because the Europeans Muslim segregate themselves from the rest of the community, and have the same culture of hate and death preached unto them in their places of worship. The same country that gave them refuge from their homelands' backward regimes now becomes their enemy. Never in the history of the US and Europe have you had a group that retains its resentment and hate towards western values, and yet choose to live in western nations, as that of the Muslim minority in Europe and the United States.
The villainy the Muslim governments taught these people, is executed all over the world today, and is being brought on to their children, so that they would learn to hate America and Jews too.

Don’t think you are on the right by seemingly protecting a victim of discrimination; the world dealt the Muslims the same, if not better card than the Jews and Christians in many places, such as Ireland. Yet wit hall their people, with all their resources, land and wealth, they hate, and their hate is relentless and deep.

I am a Jew and I am an Israeli, if this makes you doubt anything I just said, I suggest you start Googling, cause the truth is out there, you just need to open your eyes to see.
Honestly, I wish it wasn’t the truth, but you see it every day in the news. While so many people die in Darfur and in the hands of the Russia, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and Syria, the fault always seem to lie with America and Israel, America and the Jews.

Thanks for your article, open your eyes.

Posted by: Assaf Lichtash | Dec 4, 2006 12:01:32 PM

There might be a decent argument that the modern, westernized adulteration of Christianity is in some ways similar to Islam. That is, what has become known as the "religious right" would love to see some sort of Christian theocracy in place. However, the very concept of a theocracy is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus Christ (and the writers of the New Testament). Likewise, fundamental Christianity is entirely different from fundamental Islam (by fundamental, I mean primitive and by-the-book).

From the inception of Islam, Mohammed's focus was physical and provincial, much like ancient Judaism. Islam requires that its teachings be the law of the land, and the rewards it offers are largely physical in nature. That is why violence is so often the result of fundamental application of the Qu'ran.

On the other hand, Jesus Christ said specifically "My kingdom is not of this world; if it was, my disciples would fight." The Apostle Paul taught that Christians should simply live in subjection to earthly governments and pray that they might live peacably. I address this oft-ignored tradition in an article entitled Christianity and Government.

Posted by: Jacob M | Dec 4, 2006 12:12:14 PM

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S6#

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4001

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/islam_and_the_problem_of_ratio.html
http://emperors-clothes.com/israel/karsh-occ.htm

http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/weinstock.htm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HI16Aa02.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HH26Aa01.html


http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25726

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/2001-09time_to_stand_up.shtml

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25704

http://www.crisismagazine.com/printerfriendly/print.php

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/06/05/the_roots_of_the_holocaust/

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth-43-513-The_War_against_Modernity.aspx

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/49199

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901769_pf.html

Posted by: fp | Dec 4, 2006 2:17:12 PM

...these immigrants were insular, stayed in enclaves like Brooklyn Heights and Williamsburg, had birth rates that would put today's Arabs to shame, and treated women with about the same level of respect..
You forget to mention that in many Arab Muslim societies the killing of women for reasons of honor (meaning whenever their husband/brother/son/father feels like it) is a socially accepted practice. In Jordan you risk a 6 month sentence for murdering a woman, in the very unlikely event that you will be prosecuted at all. This was never the case in any Jewish community. Recently a Muslim in Britain burnt his daughter alive for reasons of 'honor'. Muslim societies have to open themselves up more to criticism from within and without, and engage in the same processes of reform and enlightenment that have occured in other communities.

Posted by: aguy109 | Dec 4, 2006 3:30:47 PM

Open themselves, yeah, right, dream baby dream. What they want is only that we open ourselves to their criticism. The want our tolerance of their intolerance. And you know what, they get it, because the post reflects western ignorant naivity of what's going on.

See how effective criticism will be to this:

Disembowelled, then torn apart: The price of daring to teach girls

Posted by: fp | Dec 4, 2006 4:06:09 PM

All the anti-semitic and anti-catholic people of 20th century were wrong but that doesn't necessarily mean anti-fundamentalist-islamists of this century are wrong. Please argue from a different point of view...

Take a look at the minority Muslims in India to see how assimilated they are. They have their own civil law that is derived from Sharia. (well even Christians have it but theirs at least is aligned with the rest of the country)

Look at the Minneapolis taxi driver's association that is refusing to drive any customer who is carrying alcohol.

These are not the signs of people that want to assimilate like Poles or Jews whose faith is mostly private.

But you do make a valid point that liberalism is originated from Christianity alone. Islam can also be a source but not if the fundamentalist strains of Islam win the battle. Which is increasingly probable...

Posted by: Prasad | Dec 4, 2006 7:24:24 PM

Alon, I thought this was a very brilliant piece of commonsensical analysis, and I admire and applaud your ability to look beyond the overheated sentiments of the present.

Posted by: Asad | Dec 4, 2006 8:29:01 PM

Religion is always going to be a touchy subject, especially where any kind of generalisations are involved. Nevertheless, I think a number of the issues raised by Alon in the original post are quite valid. Some are more contentious, but the relationship between Judaism/Christianity and Islam (and by extension, between Jews/Christians and Muslims) lies at the heart of the matter.

I don't want to engage the entire debate raised by the article because there are issues with both "the West" (however it's constituted) and countries that are heavily Muslim. There are just some very serious issues to do with immigration and the pressures faced by Muslims in supposedly "Western" countries. The issues at hand are brilliantly raised in Hanif Kureishi's short story, My Son the Fanatic, where the son of a Pakistani immigrant living in England is drawn to Islam because it offers him solidarity and solace in the face of a Western democracy that holds nothing but scorn for him as a south Asian immigrant. The tenets of Western ideologies are put to the question on their own terms: are all members of society truly given an equal chance? Are their beliefs respected as dictated by progressive Western democracy?

The story illustrates that "the West" itself is not perfect: the blame should not only be directed at immigrants, but at the systems in "the West" that purport to be truly democratic and fair. That said, however, Islam also has serious issues, but I think Alon's argument still stands. Just because some (or even a large number of) people practice "violent" forms of Islam, does not mean that all Muslims should be persecuted: there should be a space for Muslims to pursue their religion, especially if it's peaceful and non-aggressive.

Posted by: Dale | Dec 4, 2006 8:47:56 PM

Just as history has witnessed violence and brutality from Christians, Muslims and Jews, the leaders of Christianity and Judaism found a way to a more pragmatic approach to the world, which doesn't collide with the existence and well-being of the other. Today's Muslim leaders, unfortunately, for the most part do not accept nor recognize the great changes in which our global society is emerged in for the past century.

Exactly. But the keyword in your entire post should be "today." Just as Pius IX refused to accept the positive changes that were going on in his time and support the 1848 revolutions, so do Muslim leaders try hard to cling to their old traditions.

It doesn't really matter, though. Iran's regime remains standing only because its propaganda successfully portrays the democrats as weak on America and Israel. In Lebanon and Palestine, the people only support fundamentalists in large numbers when they seem like the only non-corrupt alternative around.

You forget to mention that in many Arab Muslim societies the killing of women for reasons of honor (meaning whenever their husband/brother/son/father feels like it) is a socially accepted practice.

As opposed to traditional societies in southern Italy, where domestic violence is only ever a crime if the victim's father happens to be closer to the local mafia don than the perpetrator?

From the inception of Islam, Mohammed's focus was physical and provincial, much like ancient Judaism. Islam requires that its teachings be the law of the land, and the rewards it offers are largely physical in nature. That is why violence is so often the result of fundamental application of the Qu'ran.

But any critique of Islam falls apart if you can compare the religion to other religions, which no longer promote terrorism. If Islam is like Judaism, then why do concerned Christians insist that Islam is fundamentally evil instead of say that it should be treated like Judaism was a hundred years ago minus the anti-Semitism?

Posted by: Alon Levy | Dec 4, 2006 8:59:50 PM

One must ask the begged question: if Islam offers solace and opportunities, why do these moslems come in droves to the west? If they are so keen on Sharia law and the advantages of moslem societies, with compassion and care, why don't they stay where they have that good stuff? Why do they come to the infidels in the west who discriminate against them?

Apologists of Islamism can't answer this question. They are utterly ignorant of islamic history, roots and culture. They apply western liberal principles to a religion that strives to subvert those principles, which is suicidal.
That's why they talk about the absurdity of assimilation. Had that been happening we would not have this discussion in the first place.

They should do themselves a favor and watch these videos to gain some knowledge about the real world.

http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S6#


Posted by: fp | Dec 4, 2006 9:58:26 PM

If Islam offers solace and opportunities, why do these moslems come in droves to the west?

If Italy offered solace and opportunities, why did these Italians come in droves to the US?

Posted by: Alon Levy | Dec 4, 2006 10:32:14 PM

Both Christianity and Islam have to an extent become confused with institutions that proscribe specific interpretations of the religions. In the case of Christianity, Catholicism contains a power structure that maintains the Catholic Church as the only route to their God: the institution has at many points been abused because people are/were willing to kill for their belief in the institution. (One need only think of the Inquisition for a pleasant example.) Islam is even more open to teachings that drive Muslims to defend their faith, as defined by certain people. The tensions that have existed between Christianity and Islam since the Crusades have only been exacerbated over time; the current power relationship between the historically Christian West and the Islamic world lends itself to severe propaganda. Hence the explosion of anti-Western sentiment in Islamic countries: the "West" can be portrayed as an aggressor and a violent reaction framed within Islam becomes more attractive.

But not all Muslims want to live in poor countries that are standing up against the countries of the "West". Countries like France and Britain offer the prospect of a democratic environment in which their religion shouldn't be reason for persecution. In practice, however, the "West" is not all it claims to be, and immigrants suffer as a result.

Also, before my earlier statement is totally misconstrued, let me clarify what I meant when I said that Islam was a source of solace and solidarity for the character in Kureishi's story. In the story, Islam itself is not without its problems. Nonetheless, in a hostile environment it offers a community that is based on centuries of belief and tradition: it can offer something to those who follow the religion.

Posted by: Dale | Dec 4, 2006 11:09:00 PM

what is ISLAM and who are the MUSLIMS? - http://linuses.blogspot.com

Posted by: linus | Dec 5, 2006 9:16:26 AM

The point missed about my question was that Islam was itself in large part the cause for economic failures.

The problem with the Islamic emigration to the West is that they ran away from that failure, but want to reintroduce Islam into the West, thus defeating the purpose of their emigration.

Italisna did not do that. Furthermore, italians were part of the west. They did not come to the US imbued with religious hatred and the intention to subvert the culture of the country which accepted them, and impose their own political and religious crappola.

I bet you did not watch the videos at the link I posted. I suggest you watch them and then talk to me about assimilation.

Posted by: fp | Dec 5, 2006 2:07:31 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6210324.stm

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=250126364574564&view=1&view=1

Posted by: fp | Dec 5, 2006 2:37:14 PM

Another good video. Goebbels would be proud:

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/016117.php

These are all good examples of the ignorant naivity of the Alon Levys of the west.

Posted by: fp | Dec 5, 2006 3:18:27 PM

Your argument boils down to, "Islam is not part of the West because it's not part of the West, while Italy is part of the West because it's part of the West."

I'll watch your videos when you give me some indication that you've read my post. I don't mind arguments I think are stupid so much as arguments that the post they respond to already refutes and that make no effort to get around the refutation.

Posted by: Alon Levy | Dec 6, 2006 2:00:34 AM

[Muslims] did not come to the US imbued with religious hatred and the intention to subvert the culture of the country which accepted them, and impose their own political and religious crappola.

Littlegreenfootballs called, they want their bigotry back.

One of the difficult things about Democracy is dealing with influxes of new people and cultures. It is not difficult to see how the recent history of the West and the Middle East has led to a good degree of contention. The movie Syriana does a decent job of illustrating how this happens in modern times and the imperialism of the 19th and early 20th century cover much of the other issues.

Heck, up until the late 80's the U.S. was vastly supportive of a terribly repressive regime in Iraq (and traded weapons with what is now considered a terrorist government in Iran).

To be sure, fundamendalist Islam is a threat. However, it will only be made worse by foolish stereotyping and collective punishment, as these will push more people into a fundamentalists mindset. The best (worst) data for this analysis comes from the Palestinian territories, where a generations long military occupation has left few standing outside of militants. A similar argument could be made for Afghanistan, where the USSR occupation led to a more fundamentalist population.

In a "war on terror", doesn't it make sense to fight with peace and understanding? After all, aren't they antidotes to terror? And doesn't violence breed terror?

Posted by: Wah | Dec 6, 2006 1:47:32 PM

D'oh...missed an antecendent there....but made a slightly different point...I think.

Posted by: wah | Dec 6, 2006 1:49:40 PM

You won't do a favor to me, but to you, by viewing the videos. That you don't suggests that you are not willing to discover why your argument is ignorantly naive. I am well familiar with it, you're hardly the first to come up with it, and won't be the last. Unfortunately, by the time you face reality it will be too late.

If it is natural for the islamists to think and behave the way they do because of prejudice in the west, why isn't it natural for the west to do the same because of moslem prejudice? After all, historically we know what happened to the dhimmis in the Islamic society, because it happened first, and to this day.


As to your interpretation of my argument as tautologic, you can't get even that right.

Where I agree with you is that indeed, democracy does not stand much of a chance to zealous bigotry of the primitive ignorant 8-9th century rabid hatred. It will eat it alive. For a clear example of that look at Europe.
It's documented in EURABIA by Bat Ye'or, which you should read, but I doubt you will.

As to Green Little Footballs, they at least don't behead, oppress women, apply dhimmitude to disagreers with them, chop hands and behead.

I suggest you educate yourself on Islam, its principles and history before you write on the subject.

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 2:46:56 PM

On a Wing and a Prayer
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009348

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 3:21:07 PM

Ultimately, the most despicable aspect about the imams' behavior is that when they pierced the normally quiet hum of a passenger waiting area with shouts of "Allahu Akbar"and deliberately engaged in terrorist-associated behavior that was sure to trigger suspicion, they exploited the fear that began with the Sept. 11 attacks. The imams, experienced travelers all, counted on the security system established after 9/11 to kick in, and now they plan not only to benefit financially from the proper operation of that system but to substantially weaken it--with help from the Saudi-endowed attorneys at CAIR.

US Airways is right to stand by its flight crew. It will be both dangerous and disgraceful if the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Transportation and, ultimately, our federal courts allow aviation security measures put in place after 9/11 to be cynically manipulated in the name of civil rights.

http://insider.washingtontimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20061205-112831-5995r

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 3:53:13 PM

The following explains my position much better than the silly interpretation of tautology. It also provides one of the fundamental unbridgeable difference between islam and western society, quite visible to the educated eye.

The Pope and the Prophet
http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2006/reilly.html

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 4:37:25 PM

And here's more:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/can_democracy_be_imposed_in_mu.html

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/12/antisemitism_antiamericanism_a.html

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 8:20:33 PM

And still more:

http://chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=5925

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/491

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/70

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 9:51:41 PM

And more:

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/Doubts%20grow%20over%20Muslim%20lawmaker's.html

http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/Articles/Fitness%20USA%20Allahs%20Gym.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=25854

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/999jpabw.asp?pg=1

Posted by: fp | Dec 6, 2006 10:22:55 PM

Hey, ya fear spambot, why not just address questions and engage in an actual conversation?

What is so sad about folks like yourself is that you don't realize how insanely scared you are.

How does spreading more fear and innuendo help fight against terror? It would seem that you want people to be more scared. Why is that?

What you are selling is, IMHO, "Islamofearism" and plays directly into the hands of those that want a clash of civilizations. While you may enjoy bathing in fear, many others realize that when you spend so long scared of your own shadow, you lose any capacity for rational thought. The fear rules your life.

fp, you are terrorized. It's sad to watch, but what is even sadder is your proposed "solution" to the problem is .... what?

From what I can tell from my study of LGF and the Freeper crowd is that the term "glass parking lot" describes their general solution to the modern schism in Islam (i.e. hypocritically advocating a solution that is the problem).

You are so lost in fear that you alienate the people most likely to solve the problem, that is..the 999,950,000 Muslims that aren't terrorists, don't believe terrorism is a solution, and think violence is a poor solution to political problems.

Wake up and smell your own fear. Please.

Also, quit spamming, and engage in some actual conversation.

Posted by: wah | Dec 7, 2006 10:52:11 AM

Wah, engaging in an exchange can only be done with knowledgeable people able to reason. You don't qualify.

Any rational person should be scared: the combination of a risk of reverting to the 5-6th century and the west committing suicide is a lethal combination.

What you call spam are facts, evidence. You want to "engage" in an exchange by eschewing the evidence. I understand why.

If you wanna engage, address the facts. Tell me why they are not scary, why I should ignore them. Otherwise, stop doing armchair psychology.

Posted by: fp | Dec 7, 2006 1:58:12 PM

September 1, 1939
William Auden

I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night.

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
From Luther until now
That has driven a culture mad,
Find what occurred at Linz,
What huge imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

Exiled Thucydides knew
All that a speech can say
About Democracy,
And what dictators do,
The elderly rubbish they talk
To an apathetic grave;
Analysed all in his book,
The enlightenment driven away,
The habit-forming pain,
Mismanagement and grief:
We must suffer them all again.

Into this neutral air
Where blind skyscrapers use
Their full height to proclaim
The strength of Collective Man,
Each language pours its vain
Competitive excuse:
But who can live for long
In an euphoric dream;
Out of the mirror they stare,
Imperialism's face
And the international wrong.

Faces along the bar
Cling to their average day:
The lights must never go out,
The music must always play,
All the conventions conspire
To make this fort assume
The furniture of home;
Lest we should see where we are,
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good.

The windiest militant trash
Important Persons shout
Is not so crude as our wish:
What mad Nijinsky wrote
About Diaghilev
Is true of the normal heart;
For the error bred in the bone
Of each woman and each man
Craves what it cannot have,
Not universal love
But to be loved alone.

From the conservative dark
Into the ethical life
The dense commuters come,
Repeating their morning vow;
"I will be true to the wife,
I'll concentrate more on my work,"
And helpless governors wake
To resume their compulsory game:
Who can release them now,
Who can reach the deaf,
Who can speak for the dumb?

All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

Defenceless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

Posted by: m | Dec 7, 2006 2:19:02 PM

M,

Just to minorly correct Wystan Hugh Auden, not William... also since his centenary is a few months away.

Also, Auden always hated the line "We must love one another or die"; Joseph Brodsky suggested that we should read the line as "We must love one another or kill", which seems more insightful, and may make more sense of the war cheers of the private wannabe Ministries of Truth set up by the David Horowitz's and Daniel Pipes' of the world.

Posted by: Robin | Dec 7, 2006 3:31:06 PM

fp,

Wah, engaging in an exchange can only be done with knowledgeable people able to reason. You don't qualify.

I see. So...in your version of the world, only people terrified of other cultures can talk about the subject of terror?

Any rational person should be scared.

Well then, we differ on the meaning of the world "rational". In my world, I notice that roughly 3 times as many people are murdered by their fellow Americans each year than have been killed by Islamic radicals in the history of the country.

Hence, I'm not deathly afraid of anyone in a robe with a beard and more melanin than me. Nor do I advocate rounding them up and placing them in prisons. If my country was run by folks with a similar mindset to those evident on LGF, that would have happened years ago. I thank all that is good and holy it is not.

What you call spam are facts, evidence.

Actual, the majority of your spam were "opinions". "Opinions" are not "facts". Can we at least agree on that?

Tell me why they are not scary,

Because they are not as dangerous as you believe. Your fear is biasing your sense of reality.

..why I should ignore them.

Nobody is saying to ignore anything. What people are saying is that a sense of perspective is useful when dealing with threats. Particularly mortal ones. What many people are saying is that there are better ways to reduce fear than bombing people, and there are many better ways of reducing the radicalization of populations than occupation has proven to be.

Otherwise, stop doing armchair psychology.

Looks, it's frightfully evident that you are scared. Very scared. So scared that anyone who isn't scared is seen, by you and those who hold similar opinions, as an enemy.

There were three questions posed above that you don't seem capable of addressing, so I'll ask again.

How does spreading more fear and innuendo help fight against terror? It would seem that you want people to be more scared. Why is that?

What is your proposed solution?

Posted by: Wah | Dec 7, 2006 4:12:20 PM

Two can play at this game:

"I see. So...in your version of the world, only people terrified of other cultures can talk about the subject of terror?"

No. Only people who know about Islam, Islamism, and societal facts about their behavior can be rationally engaged. Any other kind of interaction is not engagement, but a waste of time.

"Well then, we differ on the meaning of the world "rational". In my world, I notice that roughly 3 times as many people are murdered by their fellow Americans each year than have been killed by Islamic radicals in the history of the country."

That's exactly the point that the rightwingers make about the leftwingers: that they only see the bad of the US, but the much more and dangerous bads of the islamic and arab world they are blind to. So spare me your unsupported statistics while you ignore the statistics against your position.

"Hence, I'm not deathly afraid of anyone in a robe with a beard and more melanin than me. Nor do I advocate rounding them up and placing them in prisons. If my country was run by folks with a similar mindset to those evident on LGF, that would have happened years ago. I thank all that is good and holy it is not."

What a bunch of bullshit.

1. If you are not afraid, does it mean that if others are, they are not rational but you are? You are doing exactly what you are accusing others of. At least we offer facts and analysis in support of our fear. What the heck other than ideology and wishful thinking and changing the subject have you offered? (Incidentally, I lived in a country that ate their shit 24 hours a day with murderous consequences, so don't tell me what is dangerous and what is not.

2. Don't trivialize reality to "a robe and a beard" -- is that what you want me to engage in?? The only way you can even come up with such a lame comment is precisely because you refuse to address the facts underlying reality.

3. DK what country you live in, but take a good look at the european countries "without that mindset" and see what happens to them. Ah, but that is exactly what you refuse to look at -- that's "spam".

4. Can you point out where exactly did I even suggest "rounding them up and placing them in prison"? But neither do I advocate ignoring terrorist or subvertive or financial support of such activities abroad for fear of offending their religion or prophet. And frankly, I see no reason to accept immigration of fundamental islamists in the western culture. If they want to leave under sharia law, let them live in their own societies.

5. Why is it that you are so sensitive to oppression by the west and entirely silent on the oppression in the islamic and arab world. Do you have any idea of the huge imbalance between the two? I posted articles about disemboweling of a teacher who taught girls. You had no reaction to that "spam". I say bomb the shit out of those who do that.

"Actual, the majority of your spam were "opinions". "Opinions" are not "facts". Can we at least agree on that?"

False. They are facts with some interpretations. If you want to engage, you must show that either the facts are not true, or the interpretation wrong. You have done none of that, you just called them "spam".

"Because they are not as dangerous as you believe. Your fear is biasing your sense of reality."

Oh, so we are down to your belief against mine. At least I provided some support for my belief. You just declare I am wrong. All I hear you say is that you don't believe they are dangerous and you're not scared and you're right and I'm wrong. Am I supposed to just accept your belief and ignore facts and analysis? And you want to be taken seriously?

"Nobody is saying to ignore anything. What people are saying is that a sense of perspective is useful when dealing with threats. Particularly mortal ones. What many people are saying is that there are better ways to reduce fear than bombing people, and there are many better ways of reducing the radicalization of populations than occupation has proven to be."

You have no clue, because you have no knowledge about islam and fundamentalism, and you did not experience them in your life. You apply your western liberal thought to phenomena that are incompatible with it. That is why I called you an ignorant naive. What you fail to understand and appreciate that in the islamist world being nice and trying to compromise is interpreted as weakness; and that radical islam is incompatible with the west. There is NOTHING that can be done about that.

"Looks, it's frightfully evident that you are scared. Very scared. So scared that anyone who isn't scared is seen, by you and those who hold similar opinions, as an enemy."

Yes I am scared, based on evidence and analysis. And my fear is not just of the radical islam, but of ignorami like you who are behind the western suicidal failure to understand and appreciate what's going on. You're as dangerous as they are.

The problem is not me being scared, but you being blind and unable to see what stares you in the face. It is you who is seeing everybody who is very concerned as wrong, so spare me your amateur psychological analysis, intended to distract from the fact that you can demonstrate that my concern is unjustified.

"There were three questions posed above that you don't seem capable of addressing, so I'll ask again."

Until you address the evidence I posted here and demonstrate that you have proper knowledge of islam, islamism, and its techniques and objectives, you have no right to pose questions. But let me just say that Europe is probably already lost and I doubt there is a solution. As to the US, the solution is embedded in a comment above. Appeasement and attending to their "grievances" is surely not it.

I have much more "spam" to prove you wrong, but I won't bother. You're too busy being not scared to figure things out.

Posted by: fp | Dec 7, 2006 11:12:53 PM

So, wait, USC rules but FSU drools?

Posted by: Rod Flank | Dec 8, 2006 4:55:34 PM

Here's more "spam", for the


http://gaypatriot.net/2006/11/27/gay-holocaust-in-iran-4000-killed-and-counting.

Any comments, Wah?

Posted by: fp | Dec 9, 2006 3:14:56 PM

Is that western enough for you?

Posted by: fp | Dec 9, 2006 3:16:21 PM

More "western" islam:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20726085-2703,00.html

Posted by: fp | Dec 9, 2006 5:55:22 PM

And here one part of a solution:

http://www.meforum.org/islamist.php

Posted by: fp | Dec 9, 2006 10:27:46 PM

Excellent overview of Arab antisemitism.

Arabs blame tsunami on Israel. (and everything else.)

Posted by: ekbakakbar | Dec 10, 2006 9:05:00 PM

Beheaded girls were Ramadan 'trophies'

Posted by: ekbakakbar | Dec 10, 2006 11:23:39 PM

Sorry for the delaying in commenting, had a fun weekend and all.

Back to the fray....
--
fp: Only people who know about Islam, Islamism, and societal facts about their behavior can be rationally engaged.

Then we are good to go!!
--
That's exactly the point that the rightwingers make about the leftwingers: that they only see the bad of the US, but the much more and dangerous bads of the islamic and arab world they are blind to. So spare me your unsupported statistics while you ignore the statistics against your position.

O.k. you are waaay too paranoid. Pointing out that 3 times as many people are murdered by their fellow Americans each year than have been killed by terrorism in the history of the country is not America-bashing. It's simple fact.

The point of making such a statement is to point out to you exactly how off the mark are regarding your terrorism/western suicide concerns...as it stands with the facts. Your fear is irrational. The numbers, i.e. facts, back this up astoundingly.
--
fp said: If you are not afraid, does it mean that if others are, they are not rational but you are?

Correct. When one looks at the situation, it becomes apparent that being in an abject state of fear (i.e. terror) leads to less rational decisions.

DK what country you live in, but take a good look at the european countries "without that mindset" and see what happens to them.

You seem to think that all of Europe has been conquered by Islamofascism. Is that your point? To me it looks like many are doing just fine. This would be a point of opinion, so we'll skip it. Again, I look at Europe and it doesn't scare me. I'm to assume, of course, that I should be deathly afraid...but I'm not.
--
Why is it that you are so sensitive to oppression by the west and entirely silent on the oppression in the islamic and arab world.

This thread is not about oppression in the Islamic world. Quite frankly, I find this canard tossed out a bit and find it laughable. There are and have been any number of organizations that do and have been monitoring human rights violations in many parts of the world. The difference now is that it is my country doing them. I do not live by the maxim that "it's okay if they do it." My maxim is a bit more profound, being that if I want others to treat me right, I do so to them first. Additionally, the "Western" world has only gotten this sexism thing right in the last hundred years or so (and even then, we still have issues). The maintain that "oh, my god, look at how they treat their women...we must bomb them!!!" as a rational thought process one must be...well...scared poopless.

There are many aspects of Islamic civilizations that I feel need improvement. That doesn't mean I can't feel the same way about my own culture..or, and more importantly, that I deal with my own issues firse (deal with the beam in one's own eye before dealing with the beam across the ocean and past the desert).
--
fp said (regarding the stuff posted of various op-eds I pointed our were opinions):: False. They are facts with some interpretations.

Facts with some interpretations are Opinions. Those "interpretations" were the key word. Anything that's in "Opinion Pages" shouldn't be cited as factual.
--
fp said: Oh, so we are down to your belief against mine. At least I provided some support for my belief. You just declare I am wrong. All I hear you say is that you don't believe they are dangerous and you're not scared and you're right and I'm wrong.

Check that link above there. The one with the facts collected by the U.S. government(included facts about people killed by terrorists). Play with it a bit. Come back tell me I'm being irrational and the MOST IMPORTANT THING I SHOULD WORRY ABOUT, OHMYGOD!!!, is nujtobs from halfway around the world.
--
But anyway, that's all well and good, but my main point was for you to realize how scared you were.

You did this. It's a big first step("Yes I am scared...", "And my fear is not just of ...","The problem is not me being scared, but you ...","You're too busy being not scared to figure things out.")

I'm glad that you could take it. Let me tell you something else, on something of psychological tangent.

You need to stop reading LGF so much. And Memri. And Pipes. And you need to get out of the echo chamber for a while.

I remember when I first got online, and found a group of people that I agreed with..in general. Over time I found that those who wanted to rise above that group, and lead it, where those that had the strongest opinions, and convictions, of that group. Over time the group moved toward those strong opinions, and the moderates were moved to the side.

I've seen this happen a lot with the LFG/Freeper/Coulter/Malkin/Powerline types. It's already boiled over, after that guy got arrested for sending the fake antrax. You folks are scary. And not scary in a "you're not as scared as I am" kind of way. In a "how are these guys different from the kooks that want to kill everyone" kind of way.

I've read your links. I've read them a number of times. But I already know what they say. I'm already familiar with what they mean. They drip with it. They are doused in it. And they spread it to everyone they touch.

They are fear, and they own you.

Go outside. Smell the air. Take a longer look at this wonderful place we got.

Leave the fear-mongering to the terrorists.
--
On a lighter note: I'd love to continue this conversation, but only on one point.

Given that one person (A) is an American: Which group is more likely to put a gun to Person A's head and pull the trigger.

1) Fellow Americans
2) Islamic Nutjobs

If we can reach an agreement on that fact, we can continue. If we cannot illustrate the ability to look at the same numbers and see the same facts, it will be difficult to continue. Your anecdotal arguing is fun for stirring up passions, not so useful for fighting a global war.

Posted by: wah | Dec 12, 2006 6:19:06 PM

The answer to that is pretty certainly Islamic Nutjobs

Posted by: ekbakakbar | Dec 13, 2006 9:35:14 PM

ekbakakbar,

Your link exposes your fear. My question was specifically about who is more likely to engage in an act of violence.

You obviously didn't read that article all the way to the end, where it reads.

No violence was reported.

Also, you should be celebrating this change in law, as I was. It is a small step, but it is a step in the right direction. Yes, there is resistance to change. There certainly has been in my country, especially as I look back at the fights liberals had to share "human rights" with minorities and women during the last 100 years.

That fight is not over, but one way to surely lose it is to start using more bombs than reason, and doing so because of fear, not love.

Posted by: wah | Dec 15, 2006 11:29:29 AM

No violence was reported.

Except against every woman in the country.

That's like saying as of 6am no one was killed in Baghdad so all is better. All the societal characteristics that have allowed such a legal situation to exist at all remain.

While the law is a step in the right direction it's not much of a step as a judge can decide whether a case should be tried in court or in a religious court. How long before a judge gets assassinated for making the wrong decision? It's like they're saying 'It's all up to you, your honor, go ahead, get yourself killed.'

In Pakistan a woman who is raped can then be convicted of adultery and whipped or stoned or imprisoned for years.

And should a woman who reports violence against her actually get her case into a civil court she runs the new risk of being called un-Islamic for having exposed her attackers to a jurisdiction outside Islam.

If you read to the end of the article, it seems that rape is a rallying point for some, "We will not only force Musharraf to withdraw the bill through a people's movement, but we will end all the illegal acts of Musharraf's government," said Maualana Fazlur Rahman, a senior figure in the religious alliance and leader of the opposition in the lower house of Parliament.

Yes, I'd feel perfectly comfortable walking around in Pakistan.

Posted by: ekbakakbar | Dec 15, 2006 2:55:26 PM

Post a comment






Subscribe to this blog's feed  

3QD Politics Prize

3QD ADVERTISING


3QD on Twitter


Miscellany

Lijit Search

AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Add to Google


Recent Comments

Abbas Raza on Naqvi's prose is evocative of Nabokov

Ruchira on The New Inquisition

Pepito on Naqvi's prose is evocative of Nabokov

Dave Ranning on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

saifedean on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Denis Dutton on Morgan Meis Wins $30,000 Warhol Foundation Award

jb on People Hear with Their Skin, As Well As Their Ears

Pepito on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Pohanginapete on Wednesday Poem

Carlos on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Ruchira on Morgan Meis Wins $30,000 Warhol Foundation Award

saifedean on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Butters on We May Be Born With an Urge to Help

Butters on Scientists Grow Pork Meat in a Laboratory

Pepito on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Chris Schoen on The New Inquisition

Pepito on Cyrus Hall on the Swiss Islamic Minaret Ban

Abbas Raza on congo dandies (for Abbas)

Louise Gordon on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

wagonjak on Picasso's Guernica in 3D

Gajasimha on Scientists Grow Pork Meat in a Laboratory

Pepito on Andrew Sullivan: Leaving the Right

Chris Schoen on Cyrus Hall on the Swiss Islamic Minaret Ban

Lambness on Wednesday Poem

Carlos on Picasso's Guernica in 3D


Acclaim For 3QD


"I couldn't tear myself away from 3 Quarks Daily, to the point of neglecting my work. Congratulations on this superb site."—Steven Pinker, Johnstone Professor of Psychology, Harvard University.

"I have placed 3 Quarks Daily at the head of my list of web bookmarks."—Richard Dawkins, Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University.

"Just wanted you to know I’m one of many who reads and enjoys 3 Quarks....almost daily."—David Byrne, musician, former lead-singer of the Talking Heads, artist, intellectual.


The 3QD Prizes


Logos designed by Vicki Winters

Subscribe to this blog's feed