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February 13, 2006

Mohammed Cartoon Madness and Understanding

Imagine this: a small group of white supremacists collects in Strauss Park near where I live in New York City, and then marches up Broadway, past 125th Street, into the heart of Harlem, all the while chanting anti-African-American slogans of the vilest kind. They have a permit from the city for their march. They use the n-word, they call black people monkeys, they taunt them with reminders that their ancestors were slaves owned by the white people's own ancestors. They call black people lazy, stupid, and repeat every stereotypical epithet from the centuries of historical insult and injury to which African-Americans have been subjected in this country. An angry crowd gathers around the marchers. African-Americans yell some threats at the marchers, vowing to hurt them. Words are exchanged, and a shouting match erupts between one of the march leaders and a black man. The black man's mother is subjected to a particularly repulsive and obscene insult by the white man. Suddenly, the black man cannot take it anymore, and lashes out at the marcher, striking him down to the ground and kicking him until he is seriously injured. A few other young and hot-blooded black men jump into the fray and attack some of the marchers. The black men are arrested for assault and battery and taken to jail.

In an editorial, the New York Times very rightly blames the black men for responding to a legal expression of free speech with unnecessary violence, and calls for them to be punished severely. Articles in papers all over the country express the ultimate importance of free speech for all citizens, and correctly remind us that no matter how offensive we may find what people say, we must never respond with violence. They correctly tell us that we must not be cowed by the threats and irrational behavior of the African-Americans, who seemed unable to respond to words with words of their own, and instead resorted to threats of violence and even real violence. All over the world, decent people who wish to live in peace with all races wonder what it is about African-Americans that makes them prone to violence, and unable to engage in rational debate. Those who are particularly fair-minded, realize that it must have been the leaders of the African-Americans who manipulated them for their own ends. Others make the helpful suggestion that it is wrong to condemn all African-Americans and that it is only a few extremist elements among them that resort to violence whenever they see something that they find insulting. President Bush tells us that most African-Americans are peace-loving people, after all. Still others explain that it is poverty which has driven African-Americans to such violent behavior. A white professor at Harvard warns of an imminent and inevitable clash of black and white civilizations. Many black intellectuals also have the courage to condemn the violence of their people. Everyone reasonable agrees that the most important thing to come out of this is that free speech is something that must be protected at all cost. It is what makes us a civilized people.

What's wrong with this picture? This is not just a rhetorical question. It is something to think about very carefully and deeply. One of the reasons that I am writing this (other than Robin's urging me to do it) is that in the last few days, I have received quite a few emails from 3 Quarks readers asking me to explain what it is about Islam that makes it so intolerant and irrational. These are well-meaning individuals, hoping to figure out a way to avoid what many have come to see as the inevitable "clash of civilizations". How should they be engaging the Islamic world when it appears to them so incapable of reasoned debate and discussion? They mean no insult, but I still wonder if they wrote to their black friends during the Rodney King riots, asking them to explain why black people behave so irrationally? No, they didn't. Why didn't they? Because while they do not give sanction to criminal and violent acts of looting and vandalism, they can understand how a collection of historically oppressed people can be driven to irrational rage by repeated acts of injustice and caricature. Look, one can say, "It was wrong of Adam to slap Bob," but no one says, "I don't understand why Adam had to stand up for his mother, and slap Bob." As Edward Said said in a different context, to understand something is not to condone it.

But Muslims have resorted to death-threats against the publishers of the cartoons. Yes, unfortunately they have. Did you know that Michael Moore regularly receives death threats from right-wing nuts? Do you know that the Dixie Chicks have received countless death-threats from American patriots? Do you know how many death-threats Martin Scorsese received from Christians for making The Last Temptation of Christ? Did you know there were Christian bomb-threats to movie theaters right here in New York City that played the film? Well, there were. Is this, then, a defense of the Muslims who have made such threats? No, it emphatically is not. It is also not an attempt to say that there was anything like the globe-spanning demonstrations and death-threats that Muslims are engaging in now, in any of the cases that I mention. What I wish to say is that while there is a difference between those cases and what is happening in the Muslim world right now, it is a difference of degree, not a difference of kind. Despite their crusades and holy wars of the past, most Westerners do not any longer have an attachment to religion strong enough to easily give up their lives for it, and this is a good thing in my view. But it is not a good thing to forget what such an emotion can be like. Others still have it and one must deal with that reality.

What is of importance to understand here is that (however unfortunate this may be) one of the few remaining sources of dignity for many in the largely impotent world of Islam, unable to compete militarily or economically with the West and unable to remain free of interference from the West because of the curse of holding much of the world's oil-supplies, is their religion. This is the last redoubt of their pride. And this is why they lash out so angrily against what is correctly perceived by them as a deliberate provocation and insult to their religion by their erstwhile colonizers and oppressors via crude and offensive caricature. Those of you who cannot stop yourself from loudly and continually proclaiming the right of newspapers to publish whatever they want (no one serious is really arguing with you there), please take a few minutes to condemn the cheap provocation of the Danish newspaper which published the revolting cartoon of Mohammad as a terrorist. If the New York Times publishes a vulgar and racist cartoon about African-Americans, for example, my first reaction will not be to proclaim that they have a right to do so, which of course they do. My reaction might be to boycott the paper and otherwise bring attention to what they are doing. Do this, condemn the racism of the Danish newspaper, then lecture me about free speech. If the Muslim world saw large-scale Western condemnations of the cartoons and demonstrations in which white Christian Danes stood shoulder to shoulder with their Muslim fellow-citizens in protesting these racist insults, it would have a much needed calming effect and demonstrate that the Danes truly are a well-meaning people. Instead, the endless prattling-on about principles of free speech and how Islam doesn't care about it, only serves to confirm to many in that part of the world that the West sees all of the vast and diverse landscape of Islam only in terms of crude generalities of contemptuous enmity.

What I have written so far leaves unanswered the following question: what about the silencing of dissent within the world of Islam (as well as dissenting views on Islam, within and without) that giving in to threats from religious zealots may result in? This is a serious and genuine concern. Well, let me tell you something personal. One of the formative events of my mental life occurred on Valentine's day, 1989: the Ayatollah Khomeini delivered his infamous fatwa asking for Salman Rushdie to be murdered. Having grown up a Shia Muslim, this shocked and saddened me beyond what I can describe. As a South Asian, Rushdie's writings were a great source of pleasure and pride to me, and perhaps even life-changing for me, in the sense that I developed an addiction to literature at least partly through my enjoyment of Rushdie. I supported Rushdie wherever and whenever I could, as vociferously as I could, and still do. (In a private act of protest against those who failed to stand up for him, I even stopped reading books by John Le Carre and Roald Dahl, both of whom suggested that Rushdie got what was coming to him.) But that situation was different: a religious leader and a head of state had incited people to murder, and a whole country had gone along. No leader or country, to my knowledge, has done that in the present case. Of course, one must condemn anyone who calls for death or violence because of some stupid cartoons. One could also try to understand the historical and current sources of Muslim rage. That is the only way that we can encourage them to move toward more confident and more open and more tolerant societies. One could say much more about every part of this, but I must stop somewhere. More discussion is needed and one must deal with a real and dangerous situation and try to defuse it. But the media have more serious and pressing issues to discuss, like this from Slate: Where Do Muslim Protesters Get Their Danish Flags?

My other columns at 3 Quarks Daily:
A Moral Degeneracy
In the Peace Corps' Shadow
Richard Dawkins, Relativism and Truth
Reexamining Religion
Posthumously Arrested for Assaulting Myself
Be the New Kinsey
General Relativity, Very Plainly
Regarding Regret
Three Dreams, Three Athletes
Rocket Man
Francis Crick's Beautiful Mistake
The Man With Qualities
Special Relativity Turns 100
Vladimir Nabokov, Lepidopterist
Stevinus, Galileo, and Thought Experiments
Cake Theory and Sri Lanka's President

Posted by Abbas Raza at 12:00 AM | Permalink

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» Provocation all the way down from Majikthise
Danish cartoon scandal is a shameful manufactured controversy. A petty racist publicity stunt was hijacked by successively larger and more influential opportunists until it because an international incident. It all started on September 30, 2005 when De... [Read More]

Tracked on Feb 12, 2006 3:50:42 PM

» A cosmic ideological void from locussolus
1. This is old, but it's not going anywhere. 2. Abbas Raza on the cartoon madness and understanding. Also, metamadness. 3. And: sometimes even egomaniacs speak the truth.... [Read More]

Tracked on Feb 14, 2006 12:10:33 AM

» A cosmic ideological void from locussolus
1. This is old, but it's not going anywhere. 2. Abbas Raza on the cartoon madness and understanding. Also, metamadness. 3. And: sometimes even egomaniacs speak the truth. (This is as close as I've come to required reading.)... [Read More]

Tracked on Feb 14, 2006 12:11:55 AM

Comments

Your Rodney King analogy fails to factor in the fact that white people in the states were (and still are in some respects) reluctant to talk to their black friends about race--much more so than non-Muslims in the West are able to talk to their Muslim friends about Islam.

Posted by: aegean disclosure | Feb 15, 2006 8:45:09 AM

Also with respect to those riots you say of non-blacks:

"...Because while they do not give sanction to criminal and violent acts of looting and vandalism, they can understand how a collection of historically oppressed people can be driven to irrational rage by repeated acts of injustice and caricature."

There is something off a little here. The idea that the understanding came from the knowledge of previous grievances may be put under strain by this observation: that the specific instance of the Rodney King beating was offensive to non-blacks as well and punishable by law. That I think has more to do with where the understanding came from. This is not the case in the cartoon riots, and I would also be as bold as to suggest that had riots on this scale occured in the Abu Ghraib scandal alone, less people would come up to you and ask what's wrong with Islam.

Posted by: aegean disclosure | Feb 15, 2006 9:04:59 AM

I have a couple of comments here. I think it is pretty clear that the Danish newspaper probably didn't have totally clear motives in what it did, and that Muslim anger at the cartoons is somewhat understandable.

But I do think you, Abbas, are tipping over into Muslim self-pity a bit too much here. After all, it's not like there has just been a one-way street of Western oppression of Muslims since the beginning of time. There was a period when Muslims were the aggressors, invading Christian lands and conquering them. All those Hindu temples in North India didn't raze themselves. The Ottomans definitely made a practice of inhibiting Christians in their domains (devshirme, special tax, etc.), and some of those laws persist to this day in Turkey, like the fact that Orthodox Christians still aren't allowed to reopen some of their seminaries. In Egypt, the law forbids new construction of Christian churches. In Pakistan, accusations of blasphemy are a time-honored tactic for taking your non-Muslim's neighbors lands and possessions and possibly his life in the bargain. In Malaysia, the government can spontaneously decide you are a Muslim after your death and prevent your family from burying you according to their religious rites, if they decide you are famous enough and want to claim you for the nation. We haven't even started on the treatment of non-Muslims in the Gulf region and especially in Saudi Arabia.

So Muslims are both oppressed and oppressor. There's no way it could conceivably be otherwise, since we are talking about a great world religion and a lot of countries. So don't expect much sympathy from non-Muslims if one consistently plays the victim card for Muslims.

After all, if we accept that Egyptians are oppressed by the government and the West, then Egyptian Christians are doubly oppressed, by their government, the West, and their Muslim neighbors.

Posted by: Hektor Bim | Feb 15, 2006 11:38:34 AM

Parts of this exchange remind me of a line from Dostoevsky: (something like) "In the name of the European Enlightenment all these people must be destroyed".

Posted by: Siddiq | Feb 15, 2006 5:51:23 PM

Wow, keep up the good work.

Andrew of Arabia is also good for some lighter fare every now and then.

Posted by: Jonas W. | Feb 15, 2006 9:35:37 PM

"And until Saudi Arabia allows non-Muslims to promote their faiths openly in Mecca, then I really have trouble listening to Muslim complaints that they are being treated unfairly."

I have little time for complaints from muslims about how badly they are treated. It seems to me to be a one way street. For example - as a non-muslim, I cannot even visit Mecca. Christians (I am an atheist) do not have equal rights in muslim countries. I would HATE to be a christian in Pakistan. But I am sure that you know all this.

I know little of the colonial difficulties that muslim countries have had - so let us focus on current problems. Oil is a big one. I have heard that western countries are "raping" muslim countries for oil. Surely we discover it, process it, and then pay through the nose for it? I pay a lot down at my local petrol station, I know that. I understand that OPEC even sets the price that we pay. What could be fairer than that? How is that "raping" muslim countries? Where does this money go to?

I fully agree that the USA has dealt shamefully with the Kurds after the 1st Gulf war. I did not know that they had done the same in Afghanistan. But I believe you. I am no fan of the USA. I am Australian. One for the muslim side.

I think that if the muslims want to be treated "fairly", then they need to grow up. The World is not a fair place. The USA does not even treat US fairly, and we are their closest allies. The USA looks out for itself - as every country does. Too bad if that seems a bit unfair - get used to it.

I often wonder why muslim countries are so poor. Those with oil should be richer than us! Those with-out I can understand. This is probably the crux of the whole thing - if people are rich enough, they do not need religeon. And they do not need to be offended by cartoons or anything else. I have found that countries that are slowly "over-run" by muslims, become poorer. For example, look at the southern Philippines (Mindanao) and southern Thailand. Only two examples, but worth pondering.

Can anyone explain to me why countries floating on oil are still living in the 14th century?

Posted by: Kerry | Feb 15, 2006 11:25:24 PM

Caucasian reactionaries in da house. Enlightenment zindabad!

Posted by: Anal_Haq | Feb 16, 2006 5:13:17 AM

I also think that a lot of the anger manifesting in these protests comes because people have rising expectations or dreams of past glory.

Who is protesting most vigorously here? Syria, Lebanon, and Pakistan. What do the people in those states have in common? It has to be dashed expectations. Syria presents itself as the beating heart of the Arab world and the seat of power of the historical caliphate. Syrians are fed a steady diet of tales of past Arab prowess and conquest. But all Syrians know that the present government is corrupt and driving the country into the ground. It's the humiliation of it. Something similar is going on I believe in Lebanon.

Pakistan is different, but only in kind. After all, Pakistan is an artificial nation, created to be the "land of the pure" to get away from all of the disorder and diversity of India and have a homeland for the Muslims. But it hasn't worked out well at all. Pakistan has been run in the main by incompetent, corrupt leaders who insist on starting wars with their bigger neighbor. Trying to keep a hold on East Bengal only meant a million deaths and total defeat, leading to the creation of Bangladesh. There isn't much to be excited about in the future either. That's why so many people support nuclear first-strikes in Pakistan - they want to destroy everything and start over from scratch. It's the humiliation - after all, most people expected Pakistan to do better than India after partition, rather than the reverse.

I think that is a powerful ingredient in what is going on. Muslims think of their religion and culture as being superior, but there is inevitable cognitive dissonance when most (though obviously not all) Muslim-majority countries are corrupt, poor places where human life is not valued and governments are indifferent to their populations. That's why the protests in Pakistan are so much more virulent than Malaysia.

It is precisely because Muslims have an idea of how far in power and culture and influence they have fallen that they react so virulently to these kinds of things.

I have no idea how to deal with that kind of humiliation, especially since it frequently seems to manifest in oppression of non-Muslim minorities.

Posted by: Hektor Bim | Feb 16, 2006 10:08:34 AM

Hector I'm afraid you've hit the nail on the head.Unfortunately the diagnosis is easier than the treatment.Salman Rushdie foresaw the problem and more acutely than a non-Muslim ever could.I suspect that Muslims in India and southeast Asia will play a bigger role in reconciling the modern sacriligious outlook with the requirements of Islamic piety.Specially given their geographic and historical distance from the West as well as the multireligious character of ther societies,or at least one hopes so,Sumant

Posted by: sumant | Feb 16, 2006 6:36:55 PM

I'm afraid that either Bim's obtuse or an idiot.

Bim in his pointless tirade mentions Syria and Lebanon but doesn't mention Turkey, a democracy, because if he did his argument wouldn't make much sense. Bim knows the largest demonstrations took in Turkey. An estimated 60,000 took to the streets. By the way, a couple of bombs also exploded in Turkey yesterday.

Bim reserves his ire for Pakistan (which apparently gets my friend Sumant very excited) a country about as artificial Belgium, Switzerland, and Austria, and just about any country that has enjoyed colonialism. Bim knows that no Pakistani supports first strikes and its nuclear program began after India decided to test the bomb in the early 70's and then again in the late 90's.

I have no idea how to deal with people like Bim. Bim is dim.

Posted by: Anal-Haq | Feb 17, 2006 4:15:57 AM

Anal-Haq,

Of course Belgium is an artificial country, and in fact, it may break up. I don't know how anyone who read the history of Belgium could think differently. All countries are in some sense artificial, but Pakistan is relatively unique in its founding being so recent. India also is somewhat artificial in this sense. Switzerland has a very long pedigree as a country, even if its founding was not so dissimilar in some ways to Pakistan's.

In fact, Anal-Haq, I don't know that no Pakistani supports first strike capability. Why are nuclear weapons so prominent in Pakistani political discourse then? Why are mockups of nuclear weapons paraded as monuments in town squares? Why do so many prominent people have paintings of nuclear missiles heading off to India? You should get out more - there are a surprising number of people who believe a nuclear first strike is a good idea for Pakistan.

Posted by: Hektor Bim | Feb 17, 2006 9:45:41 AM

Bim, buddy, you're joking, right? Is this Bimian humor?

Let me just remind you that Abbas' post is about Danish cartoons. So get with the subject and pop a Prozac or something.

You're a funny guy though, Hector Bim, a little strident, but definitely funny.

Posted by: Anal-Haq | Feb 18, 2006 7:02:40 AM

Yes, its true. We Pakistanis are always hanging pictures of the bomb in our houses. If theres an empty wall mother always says 'where is that picture of the bomb? Hang it here please.' At tea time father says 'so what news of the bomb today? You want to first strike or second strike?'

I can coroborate these facts only.

Posted by: timur | Feb 18, 2006 7:10:39 AM

To the many individuals who mentioned freedom of speech, lets remember freedom comes to a halt when you invade someone or a group of people's freedom.

Posted by: Summayah | Feb 19, 2006 4:34:23 AM

it's one thing to be a moslem in the u.s. writing editorials about your "version" of islam from a comfy chair in some comfy office, and another being a christian on the streets of indonesia and seeing firsthand islamic "reality".

let me remind you of mass rapes in 1998 by moslems in the capital [jakarta]. how about genocide of ethnic chinese throughout the decades?
how about mass destruction and looting of entertainment facilities every year in the name of the fasting month [ramadhan]? or the egotistical, testoterone induced mentality that leads to garbs [jilbab] that women have to suffer everyday?
take a walk in my shoes then write your bs editorial.

it's about time the world recognized islam as is. i don't say anything about hinduist or buddhist, because i don't see them blowing up people in the name of religion.

islam is just as the cartoon depicts: terrorism waiting to happen. if not, explain to me why an indonesian can blow himself up and a few hundred of his fellow countrymen in the hopes of killing a handful of "westerners" in the process? says a lot about the largest moslem country in the world, and the islam community, doesn't it?

i think anybody who's travelled between christian and moslem countries know that moslem minorities are treated with a lot of respect in christian countries and not vice-versa.

so please, spare me the islamic minority sob story.

Posted by: indonesian christian | Feb 21, 2006 3:30:08 PM

Dear Indonesian Christian,

Though you choose to make your point with inflammatory bluster, you have good reason to be angry. Indeed, minorities are treated terribly in many Muslim countries, and this is should be a source of shame for us.

Labeling all Muslims terrorists in return doesn't really help anything, though.

Posted by: Abbas Raza | Feb 21, 2006 4:08:03 PM

Click here for an Inisghtful analysis of what makes this epoch such a turbulent and insane era on this planet.

Posted by: Sue Wong | Feb 22, 2006 2:20:21 AM

the cartoon against great prophet is totally madness.he came in this world for peace.may god hedayet(to know itswrong)the cartoonist.

Posted by: dr.Zahir | Feb 24, 2006 10:41:34 AM

Edward Miller
Special To The Jewish Week

After the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten’s 12 caricatures of the prophet Muhammad were republished in European newspapers, riots erupted in Damascus, Gaza, Beirut and elsewhere throughout the Muslim world. The violence is an extreme manifestation of the deep hurt felt by virtually all Muslims.

As we condemn the violence on the streets, perhaps we should take a moment to understand the hurt in the hearts of the great majority of Muslims who did not engage in violence.

For Muslims, the mere rendering of an image of Muhammad is sacrilege. The portrayal of Muhammad in a pejorative fashion is to them an inconceivably offensive desecration, on the level of what would be for us the defilement of a Torah scroll. Because it was done in newspapers across Europe, it was a slap in the face repeated thousands of times.

Perhaps it’s a question of respect, not freedom. Freedom of expression theoretically protects the right of a non-Jew to desecrate a Torah scroll. Yet we would all view freedom of expression as a hollow defense to such a vile act.

Some say Muslims can’t take criticism and simply don’t understand freedom of the press. In my own limited experience, that has not been the case. For the past year I’ve written a column in a Muslim newspaper, Muslims Weekly, in which I’ve criticized suicide bombing, the treatment of Jews under Islamic rule, the anti-Jewish rantings of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and even Muslims Weekly’s own reporting about Israel. But it was all done with respect, an informed appreciation of the wonderful benefits that Islam conferred upon the Jewish people, along with a willingness to look at our own imperfections together with those of the other.

Regardless of whether or not the European press was constitutionally free to publish the offensive images, the act was a blatant and vulgar act of disrespect to Islam. Such insults no doubt contribute to the frightening specter of a clash of civilizations.

What can we do as Jews to lessen the hostilities? Perhaps, just perhaps, a little respect would help. Rather than ripping the wounds wider with editorial musings extolling freedom of speech and condemning violent protests, is it not time for a bit of healing?

The pages of this Jewish newspaper present a place for a small start by showing Muslims right here that though we too have the freedom to say anything we like, we choose to convey respect to our Muslim cousins. Printing something positive about Muhammad best does this.

There is a space between romanticizing the past and vilifying it. There is a time to focus on the dark side of history and a time to view the other in the best light. There is a time to cull from our rabbinic writings the good our sages saw in Islam and there is quite a bit of such sentiment recorded. We Jews need to learn to be more flexible, pursuing the claims of Jews expelled from Arab countries and criticizing anti-Jewish TV programs and cartoons in the Muslim media, while at the same time displaying gratitude for all the good Islam did for us. There is a time to jump over our pain and see the humanity of the other. That time is now. Let us start:

There is a Hadith (oral tradition concerning the words and works of Muhammad) recorded by Bukhari in the name of Amer Bin Rabiha that reads as follows:

“A funeral procession passed us and the Prophet stood up for it. We said, ‘but Prophet of God, this is a funeral of a Jew.’ The Prophet responded, ‘rise.’ ”

One can search the writings of the ancient non-Jewish world for a more powerful example of a public display of respect for the humanity of the Jew. There simply is no more powerful statement than the single word uttered by Muhammad nearly 14 centuries ago.

Some readers will bombard this newspaper with reams of material showing a darker side to Islam, as if it were just too much for them to hear one good thing. But it is there, it is a sacred part of their tradition, it is good and we should hear it and respect it.

When you give respect you get it. When you take criticism, you earn the right to give it. Perhaps this article will be republished in Muslim newspapers, compete with its critical comments about the pain we feel in the face of anti-Jewish cartoons and worse in Muslim media. Muslim readers may come to understand that an article by a Jew, in a Jewish newspaper, was one of respect, telling its audience: “We know that the one mocked in newspapers in Europe is the one who had the humanity to tell his companions to rise for the funeral procession of a Jew.”

Edward Miller, a local attorney, is active in efforts to reconcile Jews and Muslims.

**You all are wondering how can one be a Muslim and a Jew at the same time. Well to straighten that wonderful thought a Jew doesn't necessarly have to follow the Jewish faith. Jews by nature are the descendents of Jacob (Peace and Blessing of Allah be Upon Him). I chose my faith to be Islam whilst makes me a Muslim alhamdulillah!**

Posted by: Jewish Muslim | Feb 24, 2006 5:20:43 PM

founders of jews and christianity are beloved Prophet of Islam. So muslims cant make cartoon to take revange.

Posted by: sazia | Feb 25, 2006 6:33:38 AM

Sorry Abbas--I had to post this on whatever references I could find to the cartoons back in February 2006. Sorreeee!

July 20, 2007: BBC "Spain's High Court has ordered the seizure of all copies of a magazine that carried a cartoon of Crown Prince Felipe and his wife having sex."

No doubt these will be reproduced all over the "Free" world's media--those neutral defenders of freedom of speech?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6909047.stm >

Posted by: maniza | Jul 23, 2007 10:20:26 AM

what it boils down to, IMO:

1)distorted humans had the ridiculous idea of relgiion. everything that comes as a result of religion, then, is also ridiculous.
2) we can say what we want, but in order to have a harmonious existence, we must RESPECT.

Posted by: raf | Mar 30, 2008 1:38:06 AM

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